KCFDC Forum

General => General Banter => Topic started by: coops on October 26, 2012, 11:40:08 AM

Title: Course Design Ideas
Post by: coops on October 26, 2012, 11:40:08 AM
We need to start dreaming bigger though! After traveling and playing a number of very challenging courses I've discovered that we just really don't have anything that compares. BV is tough but open, Cliff is OK but only a few holes make you pucker, Wyco is fun but isn't long enough, Blue Springs is getting there, but isn't long enough, etc...

Given the opportunity of different land I would think it would be much easier to build a challenging course there and to employ several 'tricks' to keep the other course as beginner friendly. (Among such tricks is simply listing a 'public' par on the tee signs. It doesn't mean anything to people who play a lot, but to the casual golfer that little mental hurdle to beat can make them feel better and keep them coming back.)
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: jack on October 26, 2012, 12:00:20 PM
How much bigger do you want to dream?

We have gone from 5 courses in 2000 in the metro area to over 25 with another 5 in the works currently (not counting Lawrence).

If we go much bigger we won't have anything that is good.  The course that I am working on is going to be almost exclusively wooded for 18 holes, something that we don't have here, it will have some pucker.

If we don't bring in some "new people" though how will we grow to help ensure that we are stewards to the courses?  As it stands now, there are still relatively few that actually help with the maintenance of the parks, the upkeep to ensure that each course is treated with respect.  We may have grown as a club to over 100% in the last decade, but our course total is over 500%, so we are not mirroring the growth as an organization.

As for not comparing to other locations......man you living on a cloud bud, KC is tops in the country with courses with very few places close.  The only thing that we lack is Mountains and an ocean.  If you really don't think that KC has challenging courses you still have some traveling to do. 

Although maybe not one course in particular, our stable of courses, and the ability to modify them to varied positions gives us some of the best options and choices that any municipality can experience.  There is a reason that KC has hosted the world's 3x, and it isn't because we have a boring layout of places to play.

All I am really saying is that the busiest park and most utilized in the metro is probably SMP, so to not make that a course that people should use as a launching pad is missing a prime target audience to help us to generate a larger portion of individuals that may be able to help us achieve the goal of having challenging courses in the area......  Until we see more participation in our club and help pushing things, do we need to worry about it?  How many touring pro's do we see from KC?  Touring Am's, more than touring pro's.  Who is our top tour guy?  Loomis (over 40) G$ (Over 40), Myself (Over 40) CD (Over 60).......you see where I am going, we don't have that younger energy even leaving the area to really understand what a gold mine we have.

Until we see more organizational development and help within our own community, I think that we are missing the point.  Let's make it so that everyone can play it, and not leave thinking that stinks, but rather, aw, that was fun, I would like to walk in the park again and throw plastic at metal. Once we get there and we get more energy (thinking that we should be doubled, close to 600 current members locally here folks, with as many people playing) then I think that we can really start to create that ownership within the parks again, and have a true reflection of every course.

****I failed to mention that we as a community also help support and sustain 2 independent disc golf retailers in the area*****
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: MUTigers on October 26, 2012, 01:02:16 PM
Being one of the new people to disc golf in the area I thought I would contribute to this discussion.  I think it would be great to look at holding tournaments at different courses around the area, outside of the usual suspects.  Me personally, as I attempt to learn the game and continue to practice I play 90% of my rounds at the closest course to me.  I want to spend as much time at the course rather than traveling to a different course.  I still will make an effort to get out for a weekend round every now and then to try out a new course but I have enough challenges being a beginner play on my "Home course" as is and am not always up for adding the new challenge of learning a new course into the mix.  I feel like I am probably not alone in this but if a tournament was held at more of the outlier courses around the metro you may get more new/beginner players out to play in these.  If it weren't for the RAC, I'm not sure when my first tournament play would've been, it didn't matter that I had only been to Rosedale once before, it was a tournament encouraging players like me to get out.  But if a tournament was held at my home course (Legacy) I would have been confident long before the RAC to play in it.  For me I don't think a tough course would discourage me from playing in a tournament, its being unfamiliar with the course in general, easy or hard, that would keep me from playing until I got a few tournaments under my belt and was more confident in playing tournaments.  Anyway, all I can say is design and build away!  I'll eventually get out and play them all.  P.S.  Has a tournament ever been held at Legacy, and while talking about land and potential additional courses, Legacy has it as well.
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: coops on October 26, 2012, 01:09:59 PM
I don't mean bigger, as in number of courses in a given range. Obviously KC is one of the top disc golf areas by that measure. I'm talking about bigger as in challenge. When you look at the reality of KC golf, I believe part of the reason we don't have many high level pros coming from KC is because most of our courses are par 3 courses. Our golf doesn't teach you to play to certain positions and to try to birdie the hole with a three. (Yes, there are exceptions to that in the area. Many of the best courses, though, have more than one or two of those holes per course.)

I haven't played at SMP a lot, but if you are right and if it is seeing a high traffic level already, I think you are proving my point that that course is suitable for beginner/recreational play. Now, imagine you get that much traffic on a course that is already beginner friendly, though still challenging, and couple it with a big, bad, par 68 on the same piece of land. Now, when people go there to play, they have the opportunity to have fun or to be challenged, or both! They can start and learn on one course and graduate, on the same property, to a tougher course and can get better because of that.

We should really take a look at all of our courses and discuss which ones are beginner friendly. After an honest examination most will agree that it is easier to list the ones that are prohibitive to beginners to play.

Hard courses beginners probably don't want to play:
BV
Cliff
Woodhenge
Wyco
???

Courses a beginner can enjoy and be challenged at:
PC
SMP
Rosedale
DU
Swope
WW
Young
Jesse James
Beaver Creek
California Trail
PHill
Legacy
And many more that I can't think of.

See the point? There are a lot of courses where people can learn and can improve without being demoralized.

The important point should be though, that a course can be challenging to pros and also be easy to adjust to the skill of a beginner or recreational player. Think of what John Theiss did at Young. Multiple tees allow for more advanced players to play alongside their lower level friends, family, brothers, sisters, aged grandmothers, etc... All sorts of other courses have taken to this sort of design as well. (Think Renaissance or Maple Hill.)

And yes, I haven't traveled as extensively as some, but when I do I travel to play high quality events and courses. We have nothing like Maple Hill, Renny, Twin Parks, Winthrop. We are caught in a pre high-speed driver era when the longest throwing disc on the market was the Roc. We need more 4's and 5's, period.

Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: Utz on October 26, 2012, 01:36:28 PM
Quote
We are caught in a pre high-speed driver era

You've summed up KC area courses in a nutshell. In order for us to maintain our supremacy we will need new courses that are challenging. We have PLENTY of newbie courses that are still hard, and wonderful courses to grow on.
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: jack on October 26, 2012, 01:49:29 PM
I don't mean bigger, as in number of courses in a given range. Obviously KC is one of the top disc golf areas by that measure. I'm talking about bigger as in challenge........We have nothing like Maple Hill, Renny, Twin Parks, Winthrop. We are caught in a pre high-speed driver era when the longest throwing disc on the market was the Roc. We need more 4's and 5's, period.

I disagree, and you are proving the point as well.  You indicate 1 course in each location for the places mentioned.  I also think that many of the "beginner" courses you listed can be made into "not beginner friendly" as well..Swope (gold or Non-gold, just tipped out its plenty hard), Rosey, WW, even SMP...DU can be made tough, and I don't think that it is a "newbie" friendly course.

The idea that a course needs to be made only to match the high speed driver is a complete fallacy.  Courses can be made with precision to many other factors, some which may include distance....

I do however agree that to have a shorter course and a tougher course available is a good thing.  I just wish that Smithville wasn't the same tract of land (same terrain essentially) over and over.  I think that they are fun courses out there, but they don't offer as large of a variety for the simple fact the land doesn't give it.  Not a fault in the design, just a personal opine of the entire property.

Hence some of what I am trying to look at I think agrees with your argument:

Cliff Drive West (Current)-
I am hopeful to get an additional 6 holes in there over the next 6 months.  I think that you will enjoy the challenge that they will bring.  I know that I am excited about it, and hope to continue to work towards a stronger course that isn't really a "newbie" one.  I never had a desire to make this an easy one, and always envisioned expansion as we continue to enjoy this very unique piece of property.

Cliff Drive East-
I want to have a much shorter course across the street from #5 pad up and through and around the museum.

Blue Valley-
I want to remove the Executive 9, and incorporate 2 additional 18 hole courses within much of the same area as the existing "Monster" and then be able to hold events with 3 courses, of which you wouldn't play the same course once.  Many designs and holes that were used prior to the installation are still in my head, and there was approval to do so in the past by P&R and money allocated, and I am working towards that again.

Also I would like to gain permission and approval to put in another course out there in the woods to the South/Southeast of #6 long pin and #7 pad.  It would be all wooded.

Hodge Park-
Just gained approval to start to work on the design there, and it will be HEAVILY wooded, with minimal shots in the open, but it won't be long, it will be technical.  You don't need to have distance to make a course challenging, and that is my hope.

Raytown-
This could be the course that you are looking for.  The land will be ripe for usage, and the belief is that we can make this course a premier one in the area.  Conversations are slow, but it will happen.  Just like here at SMP (initial conversations and approval for the course was in 1999.....) sometimes you need to ensure that everyone is on the same page to make it all work.

Now if we could look at additional areas out there, then we should.

....I think it would be great to look at holding tournaments at different courses around the area, outside of the usual suspects...... I want to spend as much time at the course rather than traveling to a different course.  I still will make an effort to get out ... to try out a new course but I have enough challenges being a beginner play on my "Home course".....I am probably not alone in this but if a tournament was held at more of the outlier courses around the metro you may get more new/beginner players out to play in these.  If it weren't for the RAC, I'm not sure when my first tournament play would've been.....  P.S.  Has a tournament ever been held at Legacy, and while talking about land and potential additional courses, Legacy has it as well.

There has been some events at Legacy, but maybe not this year.  This is another issue, with all the courses how do you hold an event at every course every year?  As it stands now though there are events at most of the courses within town (or those that we consider courses local) so it's a matter of timing for every individual.  I think that we move forward and DD is trying to get events everywhere it is only a matter of time.
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: robm on October 26, 2012, 02:07:24 PM
Great conversation.
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: jack on October 26, 2012, 02:12:26 PM
Great conversation.

I do agree with that sentiment in its entirety!
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: coops on October 26, 2012, 02:49:51 PM
Perhaps we're arguing the same thing but are differing on what we mean by challenging. Yes, all of those courses can be tipped out and can become much more challenging, but (most of them) are not championship caliber courses.

Swope Gold - Championship caliber, only played once a year

Rosedale All long - Challenging, far from championship caliber

WW Long - (oxymoron?)

And so on...

And how many time are these courses which are beginner friendly completely tipped out? Almost never. (Even beginners should have to play a hole that is too hard for them once in a while.)

And as for the fallacy of a course needing to be designed for the big wings, I find that a hard argument to support for your side. Think of the thing that almost everyone says about the top quality courses, "You have to use every shot in your bag". If a course isn't designed for the use of the big wing it doesn't require every disc in your bag.

It doesn't have to be, nor should it be, driver off the tee every time though. Think of some of the best courses and holes in our game. Maple Hill only has 8 or 9 holes where you are taking a big shot with a big disc. The others, though providing options to throw hard if you want to, demand accuracy and consistency. Another prime example of a specific hole would be 888 at Winthop Gold. The hole was designed to be played putter, then mid, then driver (though the second two might be combined with one big driver). How many holes do we have in KC that are over 800' long and you don't need to, or even want to, throw a driver off the tee? I can't think of any.

And this Hodge park course. You can design it how you wish but I hope you would use the example of Charlotte disc golf and put in some long, long wooded holes. You know, those kinds of holes that are 5-600 feet and look like DU. The ones you throw a mid on just to not screw yourself for the second shot, or try to get a little lucky and take a driver off and get rewarded. We need those kinds of decisions in KC.
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: coops on October 26, 2012, 02:51:59 PM
Great conversation.

I do agree with that sentiment in its entirety!

Yep. These are the kinds of discussions that need to happen around here. It is better when there are multiple opinions on how to do things from the get go.
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: jack on October 26, 2012, 03:11:28 PM
Perhaps we're arguing the same thing but are differing on what we mean by challenging. Yes, all of those courses can be tipped out and can become much more challenging, but (most of them) are not championship caliber courses......And as for the fallacy of a course needing to be designed for the big wings, I find that a hard argument to support for your side. Think of the thing that almost everyone says about the top quality courses, "You have to use every shot in your bag". If a course isn't designed for the use of the big wing it doesn't require every disc in your bag....... How many holes do we have in KC that are over 800' long and you don't need to, or even want to, throw a driver off the tee? I can't think of any.

And this Hodge park course. You can design it how you wish but I hope you would use the example of Charlotte disc golf and put in some long, long wooded holes. You know, those kinds of holes that are 5-600 feet and look like DU. The ones you throw a mid on just to not screw yourself for the second shot, or try to get a little lucky and take a driver off and get rewarded. We need those kinds of decisions in KC.

Every shot, not every drive, and I agree with you there.  Having played in Charlotte for World's, and few other instances, and such, there will be some holes along those lines.  As for the 888, it is slightly manufactured, so it is hard to think that needs to be an every day course.  Realization that most courses aren't in their "Top Level positions" on a daily basis is one thing that I think needs to be looked at.  In fact what Utz started (not bad for a young guy, if only he was old enough to cash often in league....) for the best 18 holes in KC shows I think that we can have it, but it may not be at one location.  So how do we get there?  How to make it that pinnacle of a course in KC.....we work towards it.  I really believe that if done properly you probably see that closest to the Raytown course that is being explored once completed.  It has most everything that you are talking about, it will quite honestly be an issue of just how far will the city go towards making that happen.

As for Hodge, I just don't know if the land will enable the 700-800' corkscrews through the woods, and I don't know that it should, because how many people would play it daily?  The goal remember is to get people to play.  I will keep this in mind though, as I look at the land, but with only about 30 acres given to disc golf it isn't really good to give up 2 great holes to have one superb hole, then a boring hole so that you have that is it?

Who'da thunk SMP would get this many hits on the web?

Love the digression!
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: coops on October 26, 2012, 03:50:28 PM
So we agree then. We don't need every course to be super hard, we just need one or two or three to be super hard.

I think, in the end, it comes down to variety. The base SMP course fits within the variety of KC disc golf for having multiple pin positions and being moderately challenging but yet maintaining that air of beginner friendliness. If the park would give us more land, I think we need to swing for the fences and put something out of character for KC there. At least two par 5's, 4-8 par 4's, and the rest can be varying degrees of par 3's. Then, if it needs to be adapted from there, there can be a goal to have two tees on each hole, with one being shorter and much easier, just like at Young Park.
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: MUTigers on October 26, 2012, 03:51:41 PM
Like I said earlier I am new to all of this, so I am not trying to come across as being sarcastic when I ask why can't all of what you would consider local courses be used in tournaments each year?  I haven't followed the tournament scene closely and will in 2013 as I look to play in some, but in looking at some of the more recent tournaments that encompass 2-4 courses in one weekend tournament it would seem that you would be able to incorporate all the courses in a matter of 10 tournaments.  Just trying to learn about it all.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: sportwood on October 26, 2012, 04:06:28 PM
I would very much love to see a highly technical additional course in SMP, however I feel that getting more small beginner friendly courses should be the clubs main focus.  I love the technical courses but there is no way to get my fiance out to those  courses.  I have used Rosedale down under to introduce beginners to the game for years.  I know I have seen lot of new players get discouraged when they play their first round and they consistently have to throw 6 time to get to the hole their host gets to in one or two.  In my experience I also know most new players don't want to be seen teeing off the short tee as it has the stigma of the ladies tee in golf.  I really saw this problem when I took a group from work for their first game to Prairie Center shortly after the recent course updates.  I really do want to see a new A tier course at SMP and it hurts writing this but if I do not believe we should make any existing courses harder until we are able to populate the city with more short beginner level courses.  I know of some people that I could get out to a 9 hole confidence building course that are scared to go out to the existing courses.
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: Peter Bures on October 26, 2012, 06:29:22 PM
So we agree then. We don't need every course to be super hard, we just need one or two or three to be super hard.

I think, in the end, it comes down to variety. The base SMP course fits within the variety of KC disc golf for having multiple pin positions and being moderately challenging but yet maintaining that air of beginner friendliness. If the park would give us more land, I think we need to swing for the fences and put something out of character for KC there. At least two par 5's, 4-8 par 4's, and the rest can be varying degrees of par 3's. Then, if it needs to be adapted from there, there can be a goal to have two tees on each hole, with one being shorter and much easier, just like at Young Park.

That's my dream, essentially. Along with a potential sanctioned event next year that I mentioned, I'll do my best to plug the idea of a championship level course at the park.  I don't know how far we're likely to get with that, especially in the immediate future, but that's why we're talking about it. We can't implement any amazing ideas without dreaming about it first.
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: five2loves42 on October 31, 2012, 10:47:56 AM
Has anyone here ever played or seen the Animals course in Warwick NY? It has two pads (Blue/Silver) and two pins(Blue/Silver) on EVERY hole. If you play BLUE to BLUE you have a monster with tunnel drives and tight approaches. If you play Silver to Silver, it is very much a beginner course. Then you can play Blue to Silver for more challenging tee shots and Silver to Blue for more challenging approaches AND possibly tee shots.

I had only been playing for about 4 months when I was there in '08, but we played three rounds and had a variety of shots on all three. 

Is there room for something like this in KC, I say yes. Anyone else?
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: jack on October 31, 2012, 11:13:05 AM
Thread drift....and more a course drift....

Tom, this is essentially what I am working towards at Blue Valley, but slightly different.  I want to incorporate the land at BV to encapsulate 2 additional courses, and maintain the large course that is in place.  They would have different color baskets, as you mention, and then alternate pads for the courses as well.

It would be 3 courses and a larger footprint than what is currently used on the "Big Course" and the executive course as well.  That area on the Executive course would be part of one of the other courses that I am working on.

This was approved by the city P&R, and received financing for it in 2010, but the water park that is by the entrance to the park wasn't funded properly, so they asked to use those funds for that.  Being a proponent of more amenities, and better use of the parks, I didn't have an issue with it, and have again requested the financing for this project this year, and should find out about the results in January on it's approval.

It will make a fun and challenging courses (albeit shorter) for the park, and also allow us to possibly host the Blue Valley Open, 3 rounds, three different courses over the course of a weekend.
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: Kevin Montgomery on October 31, 2012, 11:34:35 AM
Bluemont Park in Arlington, VA is similar. But it has a red, white and blue tee on each hole. playing from the red is a very beginner friendly nine-hole round then you can increase the difficulty two more times for 27 holes total with the blue tees being a pretty tough layout including two par fours. They now have multiple baskets on six holes and each holes has four pin placements. KC could use something like that or something like Tom described I think. USM is nine holes with 18 tees. It's a nice way to cram lots of options in a small location. Playing from all the short tees at USM makes for a pretty easy nine holes. But we're way up here in Leavenworth and the course isn't really open to lots of public traffic.
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: Tom on October 31, 2012, 12:16:58 PM
I would very much love to see a highly technical additional course in SMP, however I feel that getting more small beginner friendly courses should be the clubs main focus.  I love the technical courses but there is no way to get my fiance out to those  courses.  I have used Rosedale down under to introduce beginners to the game for years.  I know I have seen lot of new players get discouraged when they play their first round and they consistently have to throw 6 time to get to the hole their host gets to in one or two.  In my experience I also know most new players don't want to be seen teeing off the short tee as it has the stigma of the ladies tee in golf.  I really saw this problem when I took a group from work for their first game to Prairie Center shortly after the recent course updates.  I really do want to see a new A tier course at SMP and it hurts writing this but if I do not believe we should make any existing courses harder until we are able to populate the city with more short beginner level courses.  I know of some people that I could get out to a 9 hole confidence building course that are scared to go out to the existing courses.

There is a sweet little nine holer at a school in Blue Valley off 164th and Antioch I think....?

It would be a really good introductory course for newbys.

The new stuff at PC is gradually softening up around the edges as well. Also, it's very easy to play 1-10, then 17 and 18 at PC, which keeps you from having to deal with holes that players like Hemme, Tank, and Emac appreciate most.
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: john theiss on October 31, 2012, 01:11:10 PM
Multiple tees and multiple baskets  with color coded tee pads and different colored baskets is a great way to go.  With land that has nice tree stands and moderate elevation with  + or - 20 acres, you get the best of both worlds.  Total cost for  tee pads is about 2k.  That is a drop in the bucket.  Second set of baskets, signage, a few benches can get more pricey, but for an extra 10k, you get a lot ammenities to please everyone.  I agree with Tom and would like to see this option incorporated more in KC.  I have talked to LS about that.  You got 500 ft holes with high rough and newbies come out with their one disc and lose it on the first hole. 

If i am fortunate enough to design another course i would lean heavily towards multiple baskets even if i could do it on a few holes and definately multiple pads.  Pads are cheap and folks need to check their egos.  Who plays ball golf from the pro  tees?  Newbies need to be reminded of starting from a spot where you can be successful.
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: five2loves42 on October 31, 2012, 01:23:23 PM
I am going to send a note to Greg to get this thread moved/copied  to General Banter-Course Design Ideas (maybe we can sticky that as well.

There are a lot of good ideas in here and want to keep them coming. More visibility on the General Banter thread may just do that.
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: TPalmer on October 31, 2012, 05:17:52 PM
Sure wish the proposed course at Lake Lenexa would resume.  Anybody hear anything new regarding the project?  When they initially announced it, I thought they had secured Houck out of Texas to design it.
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: coops on October 31, 2012, 09:03:44 PM
They had. Money fell through when the economy went to hell. It was listed on his website for a while as an ongoing project.
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: Mike Hyzer on October 31, 2012, 09:30:05 PM
With the exception of Legacy, it sure looks like all of our courses were perfectly designed, as far as using the land and topography available. Not sure where the need to bring some big-name designer in from Texas comes from. I'll take our local course designers over that guy any day, and F Texas too. ;D
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: sportwood on October 31, 2012, 09:59:08 PM
I would very much love to see a highly technical additional course in SMP, however I feel that getting more small beginner friendly courses should be the clubs main focus.  I love the technical courses but there is no way to get my fiance out to those  courses.  I have used Rosedale down under to introduce beginners to the game for years.  I know I have seen lot of new players get discouraged when they play their first round and they consistently have to throw 6 time to get to the hole their host gets to in one or two.  In my experience I also know most new players don't want to be seen teeing off the short tee as it has the stigma of the ladies tee in golf.  I really saw this problem when I took a group from work for their first game to Prairie Center shortly after the recent course updates.  I really do want to see a new A tier course at SMP and it hurts writing this but if I do not believe we should make any existing courses harder until we are able to populate the city with more short beginner level courses.  I know of some people that I could get out to a 9 hole confidence building course that are scared to go out to the existing courses.

There is a sweet little nine holer at a school in Blue Valley off 164th and Antioch I think....?

It would be a really good introductory course for newbys.

The new stuff at PC is gradually softening up around the edges as well. Also, it's very easy to play 1-10, then 17 and 18 at PC, which keeps you from having to deal with holes that players like Hemme, Tank, and Emac appreciate most.


That is a great beginner course and it is now an 18 hole course but we need more to get new players.  New players are not as likely to travel very far to play.  To maintain growth of our community I think it makes sense make it easy to find an easier course to try out the game.  Ten years ago the courses we had were fine for promoting growth but there were far fewer people that had heard of the game back then.  Now that the disc golf community has matured a bit here the next logical demographic is not as enthusiastic about diving in full throttle.  PC is where I took my company and it scared a number of them from the game.  I am suggesting what I am because in my experience I have seen a lot of potential new players run off due to the difficulty of the courses around.  I am not saying make existing courses easier.  I am saying that we should put more focus on making the sport more attractive to a wider demographic so that we can afford to continue building increasingly sophisticated top level courses in the future.

I think this thread has been a great conversation to open.  It has sparked a lot of conversation and differing opinions.
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: sportwood on October 31, 2012, 10:06:32 PM
Quote
So we agree then. We don't need every course to be super hard, we just need one or two or three to be super hard.

I think, in the end, it comes down to variety. The base SMP course fits within the variety of KC disc golf for having multiple pin positions and being moderately challenging but yet maintaining that air of beginner friendliness. If the park would give us more land, I think we need to swing for the fences and put something out of character for KC there. At least two par 5's, 4-8 par 4's, and the rest can be varying degrees of par 3's. Then, if it needs to be adapted from there, there can be a goal to have two tees on each hole, with one being shorter and much easier, just like at Young Park.

I agree that variety is the key thing for future planning.  I think we need super courses as much as beginner courses as long as there is a good variety.
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: jamidanger on October 31, 2012, 10:19:15 PM
i hate to agree with kyhzer but why bring in an outside designer? let the work be bid right here in town, as smithville was, and let the land managers decide. if a course architect from texas or st. louis would like to come out and bid, send them some specs. with the exception of hole 4 at woodhenge, those 3 courses are great. F D-twat too.
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: mpetrin on October 31, 2012, 10:30:53 PM
I would very much love to see a highly technical additional course in SMP, however I feel that getting more small beginner friendly courses should be the clubs main focus.  I love the technical courses but there is no way to get my fiance out to those  courses.  I have used Rosedale down under to introduce beginners to the game for years.  I know I have seen lot of new players get discouraged when they play their first round and they consistently have to throw 6 time to get to the hole their host gets to in one or two.  In my experience I also know most new players don't want to be seen teeing off the short tee as it has the stigma of the ladies tee in golf.  I really saw this problem when I took a group from work for their first game to Prairie Center shortly after the recent course updates.  I really do want to see a new A tier course at SMP and it hurts writing this but if I do not believe we should make any existing courses harder until we are able to populate the city with more short beginner level courses.  I know of some people that I could get out to a 9 hole confidence building course that are scared to go out to the existing courses.

There is a sweet little nine holer at a school in Blue Valley off 164th and Antioch I think....?

It would be a really good introductory course for newbys.

The new stuff at PC is gradually softening up around the edges as well. Also, it's very easy to play 1-10, then 17 and 18 at PC, which keeps you from having to deal with holes that players like Hemme, Tank, and Emac appreciate most.
It is actually a 18 hole course if you are talking about Blue Valley West High School.and yes 164th and Antioch It is a grest Beginers course as this is where I learned alot. nothing is over 248-260ft with some minor challenging holes. When I first started i used drivers, now I seem to be leaving them in the bag and using mid-ranges
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: mpetrin on October 31, 2012, 10:41:27 PM
Great Topic Cooper, As a beginner I can go to rosedale and hit a 59-60 and a week later get a freaking 72(non-windy day). PC front 9 is great for beginners than gets more challenging towards the end. WW well that place just kicks my butt as soon as I get out of the car, but its fun to challenge myself every once in a while. But on the other hand ya more challenging courses would be great but we do have a hard time getting people out to some of the courses now to help police up trash etc...Smp is fun for beginners as well thats the place I learned alot on my up-slope drives
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: jack on November 01, 2012, 08:50:29 AM
Dear haters......

Yes we do have some good course designers in town.  We also have a ton of courses.  Why on earth wouldn't we want to have a course designed by one of the premier architects currently in the game?

I for one am in the process of trying to get work for John in the area, here is my rationale.

Why not?  Why not have a "Houck Designed" course right here in the metro area to compare our solid folks against?  Why not have that to lure some people to the area that may want to just visit it as an attraction?  Why not then understand that the diversity we bring in may enable us to get new ideas from him, or solidify the notion that we do know what we are doing with our lands that we play on?

Though not a large proponent of Texas, his accolades follow him, as such wouldn't we be silly to shoo him away because of favoritism?

I for one am very interested in not only having a course here but hopefully the chance to work and develop them with him and learn from the experiences that he has.

Even with all of our wonderful folks designing courses in the area, collectively we are still a small fraction of the courses that he has designed.  You learn better tricks from the top pros to help your game, why not learn some new tricks from a top pro on the design side?
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: TPalmer on November 01, 2012, 10:07:42 AM
I agree Jack.  Houck's name speaks for itself.  I enjoy reading his articles in DiscGolfer about course design and find his ideas from his extensive experience quite interesting.
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: robm on November 01, 2012, 11:51:34 AM
I agree Jack.  Houck's name speaks for itself.  I enjoy reading his articles in DiscGolfer about course design and find his ideas from his extensive experience quite interesting.
Yes, his articles in DGer are very educational.
(is very educational....omg i fills stoopid....)
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: Mike Hyzer on November 01, 2012, 01:15:53 PM
Dear haters......

Yes we do have some good course designers in town.  We also have a ton of courses.  Why on earth wouldn't we want to have a course designed by one of the premier architects currently in the game?

I for one am in the process of trying to get work for John in the area, here is my rationale.

Why not?  Why not have a "Houck Designed" course right here in the metro area to compare our solid folks against?  Why not have that to lure some people to the area that may want to just visit it as an attraction?  Why not then understand that the diversity we bring in may enable us to get new ideas from him, or solidify the notion that we do know what we are doing with our lands that we play on?

Though not a large proponent of Texas, his accolades follow him, as such wouldn't we be silly to shoo him away because of favoritism?

I for one am very interested in not only having a course here but hopefully the chance to work and develop them with him and learn from the experiences that he has.

Even with all of our wonderful folks designing courses in the area, collectively we are still a small fraction of the courses that he has designed.  You learn better tricks from the top pros to help your game, why not learn some new tricks from a top pro on the design side?

Lighten up, Francis.
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: jack on November 01, 2012, 01:59:40 PM
Oh, it's not the speed really so much, I just wish I hadn't drunk all that cough syrup this morning. ....

Where is your drill sergeant, men?
Blown up, sir!

Where have you been soldier?
Training, sir.
What kind of training?
Army training, sir.

Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: coops on November 01, 2012, 03:16:36 PM
Anybody who doesn't want Houck to design one of our courses doesn't know what they are talking about.

The only thing better would be to have McDaniel design one... with Houck and Duvall.
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: Loomis on November 01, 2012, 06:28:34 PM
I love this conversation. Keep going. And along with Houck... Mela's name should be in there. Tyler is a bad ass course. And whomever did the courses in Pittsburgh, their name needs to be included. Those courses are nasty.

I will weigh in when I'm sober.

Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: Loomis on November 02, 2012, 01:00:11 AM
Okay.
For Jack. The courses in KC are just fine. All of them. For a casual golfer. And if that is the only aspiration for 95 percent of disc golfers, then we are indeed in Xanadu. You could live here forever and never ever have a solid reason to be bored with the courses. From Blue Valley to SMP to Parkville to Legacy to Waterworks to that Junior high in Olathe, there are enough disc golf vistas to keep the brain going for an eternity. So whomever we need to love on for all of their efforts up to this point, come on up and get some hugs fellas! It should also be stipulated amongst the rest of us that no one is complaining about what is already here but what we could have.. in addition.

What Cooper seems to be saying is that we need a Roy G, A De la, A Maple hill, A Fly boy... something that is full-time nasty and terrifying. Blue Valley is big, but it's not scary. Cliff has some tough shots, but again, not terrifying. Blue Springs has some grit, but it's also part time. What I think Cooper is trying to say is that we (the other 5 percent) need something that says "go away or I'm gonna hurt you!" Think, KCDFC GOLD course. The monster we kept describing in that thread. That's what we need. Not a bunch of holes from different courses, but one course that has it all.

The two best examples of public, well maintained full time bad ass parks are Idlewild in Kentucky, and Tyler Park in Pennslyvania. Both have multiple settings - pads and pins. BUT most of the time these courses are set in hard and when they change them, it's not to make them HARDER, but easier. The emphasis here is that the course is always a GOLD with the occasional option for vanilla. Tyler and Idlewild are big boy courses. Casual players can play them and they do, often, but they are designed for beating up on PRO's who can easily walk through a disc golf course eating up its challenges. Both courses stress long holes 450 plus feet per hole, elevation changes and complex OB. There are no short cuts. No cheats. You have to have THAT shot to play the hole, otherwise it's a long day. Down under is close, but it's tiny. Blue Springs is also close, but you have options. The rest of KC courses usually are only tough on "that one hole." Sometimes two.

Swope Gold is tough; what was par for that course? How many people went deep under par on it last year at the Wide Open? SWOPE GOLD will need retooling every year to keep up with demand of the tour. Look at Winthrop GOLD, it used to be tough, now the pro's eat it up. It desperately needs an upgrade (and an "AM" fumigation). When the game gets longer, the courses have to get longer. When the challenges are solved, new ones have to be made. This is the truth found in all sports. How did Tiger Woods change the course at Augusta National with his game?

The tournaments are going to see courses get much longer and narrower and with more OB. In order to keep up, we need to think of doing the same here. We need to surpass that demand before it leaves us in the dust. Let's get ahead of the curve and define it. And course designers need to keep that in mind when they put their courses together. Longer. Narrower. Lots of risk. Emphasize accuracy. Play against the confidence of the player. Challenge their ego.

I like playing in KC. Every time I leave to go play somewhere else, I can't wait to get back home to play.

I wish swope at a thousand more trees, two lakes, two creeks and a live bear wandering the course. Some day someone is going to put in a course down below 13 near the train tracks... Five 450 foot holes down there would be heavenly.

So, thank you, who ever did all this great work.
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: sportwood on November 02, 2012, 11:24:01 AM
Quote
Yes we do have some good course designers in town.  We also have a ton of courses.  Why on earth wouldn't we want to have a course designed by one of the premier architects currently in the game?

I for one am in the process of trying to get work for John in the area, here is my rationale.

Why not?  Why not have a "Houck Designed" course right here in the metro area to compare our solid folks against?  Why not have that to lure some people to the area that may want to just visit it as an attraction?  Why not then understand that the diversity we bring in may enable us to get new ideas from him, or solidify the notion that we do know what we are doing with our lands that we play on?

Though not a large proponent of Texas, his accolades follow him, as such wouldn't we be silly to shoo him away because of favoritism?

I for one am very interested in not only having a course here but hopefully the chance to work and develop them with him and learn from the experiences that he has.

Even with all of our wonderful folks designing courses in the area, collectively we are still a small fraction of the courses that he has designed.  You learn better tricks from the top pros to help your game, why not learn some new tricks from a top pro on the design side?

Jack

I completely agree with this...  even if our local designers can produce the same level course it wont have the drawing power.  If we can compare our local designs side by side with a course designed by a big name it could give our local designers a name.  Worst case is we learn something about course design.  Best case is our current courses gain more respect nationally.
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: sportwood on November 02, 2012, 11:36:42 AM
Well worded loomis.
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: hberciunas on November 03, 2012, 12:50:14 PM
Great discussion gentlemen and I understand need for both.

I am a first year player and began at PC before the changes. It was very challanging and yet fun for a beginner. The changes made last spring made playing very frutstrating for me and other beginners/rec players. At first I considered not playing there anymore or just skipping 12-16 because 13,14, 15 were just such hard work (mostly because of digging out discs in thorns and poisen Ivy and because I could keep out of it). I know several folks and see many more who just skip 12-16 everytime they play.

I think there are plenty of "tough" courses. I have only played BV a few times because I end up exhausted and frustrated. I love Cliff . . . now, becuase I appreciate the variety of play and challange. First time out, I only liked it because I got a birdie on 2.

I think it is important to have the challenge for the pros, but how many pros do we really have in town? Enough to justify cost and expense for long hard courses specifically for the pros?

Probably best is to have two or more tee pads. Mark one Pro and make it as tough as you want. We can still play short tees and learn. When we are ready we can take the challenge of the long tees. (I still like playing short at PC 2, cause I might get a bird or hit chains! Can't get close to island from long  tee. . . yet.)

A bit off the subject . . .

Another idea, that I would be willing to put some energy and time into is more beginner leagues. I have played several leagues where there are only one or two divisions. Either way, me and several in my level end up donating $5 or $10 to Advanced and above players. Even the "am" groups play 5-10 strokes better than most folks who play Rec division at tourneys. (I do really like playing with much better players . . . I play better and learn leaps and bounds when I do . . . thanks for letting me play with you all.)

Or maybe some leagues that play Cali or modified scoring rules. (muligans up to three for every stroke over par or ???)
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: mperry on November 03, 2012, 01:05:53 PM
I think it is important to have the challenge for the pros, but how many pros do we really have in town? Enough to justify cost and expense for long hard courses specifically for the pros?

Could it be possible that Kansas City doesn't produce many pros because of the lack of very difficult courses? I know many pros come from California and Charlotte where tough courses exist. I personally would like to see a really challenging course be put in the ground not just because I am becoming a somewhat strong advanced player and want to play it but I would like to challenge myself to continue to improve and throw some par 4 holes to work on different aspects of the game that I will be introduced to in am worlds. I love Kansas City and am blessed to learn this sport in such a convenient city but as I see my game improve I want to be challenged. Maybe that's just me.
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: dickthediscparker on November 03, 2012, 01:13:03 PM
I for one like the challenging golf, but at the same time, putting in a short Tee Box can allow others to enjoy the game and only play the longs when they feel like it. I think it is harmful to not listen to the casual golfers who complain. You should be willing to make small concessions here and there to better the course for all, not just some.
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: tla06 on November 04, 2012, 09:01:44 AM
While new courses are fun, I agree with what others said earlier that the manpower to maintain what we have has been seriously diluted with the courses recently added.  Trash everywhere and same ol', same ol' leaves a negative impression as much as a course being too hard or too easy. 
The courses we have, with creatively placed terra and flora, could be made a fair bit more difficult; and while maybe not being able to add footage to the level of difficulty, these obstacles will bring more "placement" shots to our courses and definitely add more strokes. This is part of what I think the OP was talking about.
So c'mon local course designers, lets make some of the old new again; you know, recycle.  Lets see if we can use some of the money earmarked for new courses to do some serious landscaping at the existing courses.
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: jack on November 05, 2012, 09:30:12 AM
Interested Terry, though the money get's earmarked for the new parks as improvements, and enhancements in most parks are hard to come by, but I can see that thought as a component for advancing the courses.

On the Beginner's leagues, we have just the Monday at Rosedale, but I think that this topic will probably be discussed by the new BoD with some interest based on the comments in the forums here about a few of the items accordingly.

Thanks for good topics.
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: robm on November 07, 2012, 12:29:20 PM
Interesting articles on pdga.com about this...

long version:
http://www.pdga.com/pdga-documents/course-reference/correlation-for-better-courses (http://www.pdga.com/pdga-documents/course-reference/correlation-for-better-courses)

cliff notes version:
http://www.pdga.com/discovering-worldly-good-courses (http://www.pdga.com/discovering-worldly-good-courses)
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: matty on November 07, 2012, 01:01:25 PM
the 2 holes at prairie center right before the water hole reminded me very much of being at houcks circle r ranch, except pc has real tpads.
Title: Re: Course Design Ideas
Post by: jamidanger on November 30, 2012, 08:32:44 AM
thoughts about polite signage, this recently installed course has them:

http://youtu.be/ksqUkFSE2b8 (http://youtu.be/ksqUkFSE2b8)