KCFDC Forum

General => Leagues => Topic started by: robm on March 03, 2014, 04:15:28 PM

Title: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League suggestion thread
Post by: robm on March 03, 2014, 04:15:28 PM
Any interest in running a PDGA Sanctioned league at one of the upcoming leagues?
Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: jteater on March 03, 2014, 07:58:13 PM
Any interest in running a PDGA Sanctioned league at one of the upcoming leagues?

Yes, I think KCFDC member #1507 should do that.  :)
Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: robm on March 03, 2014, 08:12:33 PM
Any interest in running a PDGA Sanctioned league at one of the upcoming leagues?

Yes, I think KCFDC member #1507 should do that.  :)
sounds great.
Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: jteater on March 04, 2014, 08:59:31 AM
I think we need a PDGA league on sunday afternoon at Wyco. Then you could just not have the league on the sundays when there is a local tournament. That would give you some weeks of not having to run league also.
Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: jamidanger on March 04, 2014, 09:19:26 AM
sundays are tournament days, pdga nite on Mondays or Thursdays would be cool. hell FTL could prob get the buck-a-player fee. how much work is it to run a league pdga style, jack?
Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: robm on March 04, 2014, 09:36:16 AM
I've looked into the amount of work it takes, and the cost, and am willing to cover it.  If I cover the registration fee, I want to cover the league reporting.

I think FTL would be a perfect PDGA league, but I can only commit to every other week - at best (and maybe not even that) - starting the second week of April when I go back to having Friday's off.  I think we could have more than one PDGA league, FTL being one of them, but that would have to be someone else.

I would be interested in running a PDGA league myself on either Monday or Wednesday.  It is hard to keep track of various threads, but it seems like there was some interest in moving Cliff Drive to Friday.  If so, we could move WyCo to Monday.  I would run WyCo on Mondays (or Wednesday) as  PDGA league.  If Monday, our first day would have to be April 7 - I could not start earlier.

Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: KCWaldo on March 04, 2014, 10:06:44 AM
I would be very interested in a PDGA league on the Kansas side. 

Mondays are Olathe league nights, but a Wednesday night Kansas traveling league would be cool. Wyco, SMP,Lakeside, PC, Heritage, Little Kansas BV, Perry once or twice.
Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: ekolk on March 04, 2014, 02:20:58 PM
So the thread title is KCFDC PDGA league, but FTL is not a KCFDC league. Just FYI. What about the league with the most attendance? WW? or Rosedale? I don't know if Greg or Scott would be interested, but a thought. We have a league for every week night, so I am not so sure adding another would attendance or participation all around.

Rob, Thanks for volunteering. What would work best for you?
Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: white mccoy on March 04, 2014, 02:39:04 PM

I think FTL would be a perfect PDGA league, but I can only commit to every other week - at best (and maybe not even that) - starting the second week of April when I go back to having Friday's off.  I think we could have more than one PDGA league, FTL being one of them, but that would have to be someone else.


I don't believe you should have a PDGA league that only privileged people who enjoy Friday's off can play.  Some of us want to play too, but don't have the 4-day work week, or unemployment.

I would be very interested in a PDGA league on the Kansas side. 

Mondays are Olathe league nights, but a Wednesday night Kansas traveling league would be cool. Wyco, SMP,Lakeside, PC, Heritage, Little Kansas BV, Perry once or twice.

I like this idea.  Rob, you should run a Wednesday Kansas Traveling KCFDC PDGA League. I'd even venture to Lawrence, Perry, Baldwin, on Wednesday nights!!!

I also think it would be awesome to take a summer off from every Wednesday Rosedale League.  The course needs a break.   Just play it once a month or so on Wednesday Night Traveling league.

Just an opinion.
Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: robm on March 04, 2014, 03:01:08 PM
I don't believe you should have a PDGA league that only privileged people who enjoy Friday's off can play.  Some of us want to play too, but don't have the 4-day work week, or unemployment.

Just an opinion.

Hey Joe - I'm not trying to bust you or anything, but this doesn't really work well.

"I can't play on Sunday tournaments because it is the Sabbath" - Christians

"I can't play on Saturday tournaments because it is the Sabbath" - Jews and Seventh Day Adventists

"I can't play on weekend tournaments because I'm a bar server and don't go to bed until 4AM."

"I can't play out of town because I had a DUI and can't drive."

"I can't play in Tim Selinske Masters in Tulsa, OK in April because I'm 27"

"I can't play in PDGA Junior World Championships because I'm 27"

If the only reason FTL doesn't have a PDGA league is because some can't play, the logic is flawed.

Again - not trying to start a piss storm, just pointing some issues out.  I'm not the one that would run the FTL PDGA league though...
Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: robm on March 04, 2014, 03:08:59 PM
I don't mind having a traveling league in the evening.  I actually really lilke the idea.  I'm concerned about attendance though.  I think it would have to be on a set night - like every Monday or every Wednesday (actually those are the only two I'm available.)

If I ran it, I would post the 10 week schedule ahead of time.  All 10 weeks.

Payouts would be the normal KCFDC league structure, including KC Kash if the board would let me.

It would be run on two different spreadsheets.  The KCFDC league and the PDGA league.  Theoretically, a person could play 'Open' in the KCFDC league but 'MA1 - Advanced' in the PDGA league.  This is actually kosher with the PDGA.  For leagues, Ams can collect cash and not have their Am status in jeopardy.

For the PDGA side, we would run just 'Open' and 'MA1'.  This helps everyone with PDGA points as these two categories have the highest point multiplier.  If this is confusing, let me know and I'll explain it in more detail.

Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: jack on March 04, 2014, 03:14:14 PM
Bravo.  I like the idea of rotating leagues.  I like the notion of everyone playing a different location, I thought that would be a great plan for the league.

THe only thing to remember is that there is a $1/fee, so if you go to Olathe on Monday nights for example there would be an additional $1/fee per player for the PDGA league.

The notion of 10 weeks, 10 different location is a fun one.  Excellent, don't limit to KS courses only though, use all KCFDC courses would/should/could be the requirement.

Using courses not KCFDC could create some other issues that no one should have to worry about in running this type of format.
Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: robm on March 04, 2014, 03:19:19 PM
More thoughts -

For the PDGA league to actually have a decent rating (which the only reason for having a PDGA league is for rating and points) is that at least 3 (?) Propogators must play.

http://www.pdga.com/leagues (http://www.pdga.com/leagues)

Good information here (scroll down to Leagues):

http://www.pdga.com/faq/136 (http://www.pdga.com/faq/136)

Here are a couple FAQ's that I think are particularly helpful

Quote
Do players get PDGA ratings from league rounds? Yes. Current PDGA members will earn ratings and even non-members will earn them even though they won't be able to see their official ratings until they join or renew. Players will see preview (unofficial) ratings each week when the TD posts the scores online just like regular tournaments.

If some weeks don't display preview ratings, it's likely not enough players entered that week with established ratings (propagators) over 799. At least 5 propagators are required to produce preview ratings. The good news is that once the league report is submitted to the PDGA, players will still receive official ratings for any of the weeks they couldn't see preview ratings.

Do players earn PDGA points?
Yes. Players will earn PDGA points based on how many players they tied or beat in their division during each week of play.  League points are 1/2 the amount of points of a C-Tier tournament

You don't have to be a PDGA member to play.
You would have to pay the $1/round PDGA fee to play in this league regardless of PDGA membership status.

So it would be normal KCFDC fee structure + $1 PDGA fee.


Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: robm on March 04, 2014, 03:24:37 PM
Jack - maybe we could run 9 weeks on a KCFDC course and then the final 10th week at Perry.  We may have to adjust the time for the finale.  I would love to see (how bad) my rating would be at Perry.
Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: jack on March 04, 2014, 03:34:31 PM
You of course can do it how ever you want, the issue would be getting approval to exchange funds at a course that isn't KCFDC approved.  I know for example a few places have already indicated that without insurance they don't want any type of "organized" event at their park.

So by having the KCFDC courses, you have the insurance piece covered, and that alleviates many of the NIMBY types.
Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: white mccoy on March 04, 2014, 04:01:31 PM
I don't mind having a traveling league in the evening.  I actually really lilke the idea.  I'm concerned about attendance though.  I think it would have to be on a set night - like every Monday or every Wednesday (actually those are the only two I'm available.)

If I ran it, I would post the 10 week schedule ahead of time.  All 10 weeks.


This sounds great Rob.  I don't think you would have any problem with attendance.  Especially when putting out an early schedule.

You of course can do it how ever you want, the issue would be getting approval to exchange funds at a course that isn't KCFDC approved.  I know for example a few places have already indicated that without insurance they don't want any type of "organized" event at their park.

So by having the KCFDC courses, you have the insurance piece covered, and that alleviates many of the NIMBY types.

I know this is a KCFDC forum, and I don't mean to step on toes...but I am pretty sure that I can meet a group of guys at a course anywhere, anytime, and play golf, exchange funds, etc.  I don't need insurance or permission for that.  So why couldn't a week here or there be on a course outside the KCFDC realm?  Who has to know it was a league? And not just some random dudes throwing discs for few $

Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: jack on March 04, 2014, 04:13:04 PM
Integrity Joe, plain and simple.  Can it be done, absolutely, but asking for it to happen as a KCFDC league which has it's own merits means that it should be above the board.

It's not a matter of stepping on toes, but if all of a sudden a course ends up with 10-15 cars, and 30-40 people showing up, someone somewhere is going to ask, and an honest answer is best, so why hide it?  Or try to remember what to say?

The fact is that for me personally I have a hard enough time trying to remember the truth, you start filling my head with lies to remember and it is going to get ugly in there.

So the instance of holding an "approved" league that garners the support of the club, and covers the incidents that could happen within the confines of the game only makes sense.

Now as a side note to that a quick call to the P&R to ask permission may find that out as well, in which case a KCFDC BoD member (Ideally State VP) should reach out to inquire as to what they may like to see to gain or garner support.  most will have  list of requirements, and they could be simple, or not so much.....going with 10 weeks in a league Rob, you should be late enough on time to cover that in June after rain outs, etc that will happen to ensure daylight shouldn't be an issue.

It's not that you "can't" it is that you want to do it correctly so that no one is surprised, angry or hurt that proper channels weren't adhered to.
Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: white mccoy on March 04, 2014, 04:29:44 PM
Fair enough.

Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: robm on March 04, 2014, 04:39:46 PM
Currently, this is the way I see it.

My first choice is to have one of the permanent leagues run a 10-week PDGA league. 

Either Cliff or Olathe on Monday
or
Rosie or Young on Wednesday
or
move WyCo to Monday or Wednesday.

I am volunteering to run the PDGA side of any of these options.  I could possibly consider running WyCo for the rest of the year on Monday or Wednesday - but I'm not 100% there yet.

If one of these options do not work, my next choice will be to run a Wednesday travelling league. 

Tentatively, my idea would be to start Wednesday, April 2 - running 9 weeks straight through May 28 with the 10th 'week' actually being a Saturday afternoon round at Perry on the 5/24.  This is just my idea so far because I'm bored at work and excited about sanctioned leagues.

Again - my first choice would be not to start something new, but to work with what we already have.

I'm starting to think this is a good time to still gather ideas and then attend the BOD meeting March 12 (?) with proposals.
Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: Peter Bures on March 04, 2014, 05:05:54 PM
I was open to running the league at SMP starting in May, but I like the idea of a rotating league even more.
Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: stevet on March 04, 2014, 05:09:25 PM
I think most people want to play PDGA leagues for the ratings.  I am not a huge ratings snob but it seems as though there might be a problem doing different courses on one PDGA league? 

Take round 10 for the Northeast league:

http://www.pdga.com/tour/event/15053 (http://www.pdga.com/tour/event/15053)

This round was played at Big Blue.  CD and I both shot a 68 and got a 885 rating.  A 68 during the Wide Open was 980 (same layout, similar conditions, etc). 

Basically what is happening is that the scores are processed for the entire league.  If you look a 68 is always a 885 regardless if you played at cliff or BV.

Maybe PDGA just needs to fix their crap?  If you wanted to inflate your rating you could just go to league nights when its an easier course, easier layout, and favorable conditions.
Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: robm on March 04, 2014, 05:47:15 PM
@ Peter - If you want to run a PDGA at SMP - please do.  I was getting the interpretation that you were not really wanting to.

@ Steve.  That is very interesting.  And explains a lot, like how I got a 689 rated round when I previous worst rated round was about 780.  It might possibly have to do with how Jack entered the numbers - if he adjusted the Par or not, etc.  I've had a couple of emails with Chuck Kennedy about ratings and this would be a good one to ask.

As far as ratings go - I'm rated 842.  Which is my highest ever after starting at 824 2 -years ago.  I don't need ratings, I just find them interesting.  Same thing with points.  For me, once I get past 200, it doesn't matter because I'm guaranteed an invite to Am Worlds as it is currently set up.

Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: jack on March 04, 2014, 06:36:30 PM
Ratings aren't based on a course, they are based on the players that played league that night with established ratings history.

If you play a round of golf with 10 people that are rated at 1000, and your 60-950, and you play a round with 10 people at 900, you can bet your 60-will probably equal a 925 now instead.

Par is subjective, but has nothing to do with the ratings.  There can be manual manipulations with weather related incidents, that typically will only occur when you have tee times that changed over the day (yet another reason Tee times are harmful for ratings.....or tough to be accurate with).


The issue that night was that you had 968 rated players shooting 68, and then 925 shooting 59, so the curve was that the course played easier to the system on the lower rated players, and thererfore the high rated players should have shot better.  It again shows a "flaw" in ratings that I can go into but ultimately unless your higher rated players shoot better than you the course will play at a "lower rating" over all.  You can look at scores from different pools of the Wide Open to also see that the variance based on course and pool is also different.

Ratings are far from perfect, it is what we use currently though and there will be issues based along those lines.  Suffice it to say, par (the TD's determination of PAR) has absolutely nothing to do with ratings, it has to do with the players that are rated playing that course in that same field on that same day.  Every day a course can be rated different based on the participation, even though the course doesn't change.  What you hope to have happen is that you get enough people playing the same exact course over and over in the exact hole configurations (tough in KC as many placements on MANY holes make the course different weekly almost) so that you get a statistical numeration to have an understanding of the course.

I have done that at Cliff Drive over the years to learn which holes are tweaners, but then that is my own diligence.  Not everyone enters the hole configurations to make determinations.

So the longer or longest answer (yeah I can be longer) is that it doesn't matter what course is played, as long as everyone playing that course played it that day under the similar conditions for rating purposes.

 ;D
Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: jack on March 04, 2014, 06:40:48 PM
There is something wrong with the Ratings, I will send a note off, as well.  I looked in there and the 55 that I shot is rated at a 1001, and I think that night it was rated like a 980, I even listed in the comments, that no 1000 rated round, so the course won.

I will send a note off, they had issues with this "event" and may have affected it.

I think that this was a glitch and thanks for pointing that out for certain.
Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: kevinmzane on March 04, 2014, 09:38:04 PM
I have a really hard time making any commitment to regular league attendance, but for what it's worth I really like the idea of a PDGA league on the KS side.
Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: Peter Bures on March 05, 2014, 02:31:04 AM
What about an abbreviated rotating KS league? So instead of playing 10 different courses, just pick 3 and rotate between them?

SMP, Lakeside, Wyco or something like that.
Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: robm on March 05, 2014, 07:59:47 AM
What about an abbreviated rotating KS league? So instead of playing 10 different courses, just pick 3 and rotate between them?

SMP, Lakeside, Wyco or something like that.
That's an idea.  I'm intending to go to next week's BOD meeting to discuss.
Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: jteater on March 05, 2014, 08:40:03 AM
What about an abbreviated rotating KS league? So instead of playing 10 different courses, just pick 3 and rotate between them?

SMP, Lakeside, Wyco or something like that.
That's an idea.  I'm intending to go to next week's BOD meeting to discuss.

Just speaking for myself, those 3 courses on Wednesday would be my favorite choice.
Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: Scott A Reek on March 05, 2014, 05:01:10 PM
I really like the idea and would help.  I would rather it not be no Wednesdays as I would like play but since I run the Rosedale League, i would not be able too.  I realize I am just one person but that is my opinion and push for it to be on a different, perhaps Monday.  Either way, I would support it.
Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: robm on March 06, 2014, 09:59:25 AM
See new thread regarding a poll.

http://kcfdc.org/forum/index.php?topic=10221.0 (http://kcfdc.org/forum/index.php?topic=10221.0)
Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: stevet on March 19, 2014, 01:33:27 PM
Not sure if anyone else noticed, but this last ratings update they fixed the PDGA leagues.  Now every round is calculated individually (as it should be).  The example I used,
 68 at big blue, is now a 967 round. 

So...no worries on changing courses, changing layouts, etc etc.  Yay.
Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: robm on March 19, 2014, 01:36:58 PM
Yeah, I noticed that too.  I had one round change from a 690 round to a 850 round.  Quite the difference.  I also had a couple 910 rounds drop to 880 ish.
Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: kevinmzane on March 19, 2014, 05:39:50 PM
Not sure if anyone else noticed, but this last ratings update they fixed the PDGA leagues.  Now every round is calculated individually (as it should be).  The example I used,
 68 at big blue, is now a 967 round. 

So...no worries on changing courses, changing layouts, etc etc.  Yay.

Where do we find the course ratings then? So you are saying that regardless of the layout, your score relative to other players and conditions the ratings are set based only on your individual score? 68 at Big blue during the wide open was like a 980 and those were pretty ideal conditions.
Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: stevet on March 19, 2014, 08:52:05 PM
Oh, yea my last post was a little confusing.  I was only trying to say that each round is calculated separate now.  Previously, it appeared that all rounds were linked together which was causing some real whack ratings.

The propagators (individuals with enough rated rounds) have the most influence on scores.

I think a 12-13 point difference from similar conditions / layout is acceptable.  On that evening some of the propagators probably shot a little better than normal so it brought the overall ratings down a bit.
Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: jack on March 20, 2014, 01:38:35 PM
There are not "course ratings" there is no such thing.  There are ratings (based on the PDGA rating system that is) for the events, and it is based on having at least 3 rated players to determine the ratings for that round in particular.

After you folks were kind enough to notify me of the error on the ratings, I worked with the PDGA (they actually did it, thanks to Steve Ganz and Andrew Big Dog, and Chuck Kennedy) to let them know of the error in the submission of the final TD report for the leagues.  In that I failed to alter the league locations and they got it corrected.

So to answer the question, again if you play OPEN in the Wide Open you score will almost guaranteedly be higher than in other divisions because of the pool you play in has players with higher ratings, that in turn allows for a higher rating on your score based on the people you are playing with.

If you want higher ratings play open......it is a silly thing personally, but it is the only silly thing that is "agreed upon" by our current players.
Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: robm on March 21, 2014, 07:59:24 AM
The spring 2014 PDGA will be a rotating course league.  I'll post more information later when I have some time today / this weekend.
Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: KCWaldo on March 21, 2014, 08:44:38 AM
Excellent!  If you can work Perry Lake in for one round would be awesome, I would really be interested in what the ratings would look like for that course.
Title: Re: 2014 KCFDC PDGA League
Post by: white mccoy on March 21, 2014, 09:25:47 AM
The spring 2014 PDGA will be a rotating course league.  I'll post more information later when I have some time today / this weekend.

 ;D

Don't worry bout all the cry-baby haters Rob...If you build it, they will come. 
I'll participate in as many as possible.