KCFDC Forum

KCFDC Courses => Other Area Courses (Not Affiliated with the KCFDC) => Smithville => Topic started by: Dan Weinert on November 19, 2009, 06:50:24 AM

Title: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on November 19, 2009, 06:50:24 AM
Meet with the park people today and recieved some good news- They are offering 3 chunks of land that fit our criteria as possible locations for the big boy course...decisions, decisions, decisions!

I brought up the idea that any designers from the club want might want to take a stab at designing the could look at the photos of the land when they are available, visit the land with me as your tour guide, then submit design proposals based on that. They liked the concept and understand that we must use a designer and not try to go at this alone.

The winning designer would be compensated and would work with me and the Clay Co Park people in bringing this course into fruition.
Some of the land I wanted is in crop lease until 2011 and 2012 but they think they can do some trading with the farmers...take this 40 acres here and give them another 40 somewhere else.

Interested parties should PM me and we will set up a time to meet at the land, go over the photos and turn you loose on your proposals.

Timelime for your initial proposal would need to be close to Dec 15th to Dec 31, 2009 as possible. I need to have things semi-finalized for our proposal to the Park Board sometime in early January.

Disc Golf in Smithville...It's Gonna Happen Folks!!!
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on November 19, 2009, 12:17:07 PM
So you're sitting there going am I pretty enough...do people like me?

How ever could a person like me ever design a disc golf course...


The answer is simple...

It's an easy process sir...here are the 3 steps I would recommend-

1. Have the ability to play nice with others.

2. Look and fully understand the maps and provided materials when available. Would help if you or any applicant, had a complete understanding of current design standards, saftey standards, land utilizing concepts, insurance risks and policies, etc...

3. Be willing and prepared to "shock & awe" the disc golf world as we know it.

What could be any more easy or more fun sir?

PS- No one is going to retire from this but you again...shall be compensated.
     Terms of that to become avalable once they become available.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on November 19, 2009, 06:45:16 PM
Quote
They are offering 3 chunks of land that fit our criteria...

CORRECTION- They are offering 4 chucks of land that fit our criteria.

They have even mentioned that maybe, one day, we could have multiple courses at Smithville...each with their own uniqueness and personality.

How freakin' cool would that be?

Dan  :o :o :o
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: slimneal on November 19, 2009, 10:38:06 PM
Not that  I would have any conception on laying out courses, but;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
I have been playing 30 years and have presention design skills.
Sliminy

816-516-3938
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on November 20, 2009, 08:04:21 AM
I just got 4 maps from the park guys...I need to look at them first so I can understand and expain them to you all.

Once done and I do my thing to them, I will post each map as a hyperlink here along with comments, gps coordinates and any other notes as needed.

Stay tuned gents...

Disc Golf in Smithville...It's Gonna Happen!!!

Dan  8)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Tom on November 20, 2009, 10:32:48 AM
Can these maps be provided in either AutoCad (.dwg format) or Microstation (.dgn format) ?
As a civil/structural designer with 28 years experience and over 20 years of disc golf experience I believe I can do a good job designing a course, but would prefer to work with CAD files for ease in scaleability and coordinates.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on November 22, 2009, 07:34:55 PM
Quote
Can these maps be provided in either AutoCad (.dwg format)

Tom- Yes...maybe!...the pdfs are still in layers but my software is having issues. I need to open the pdf, add some new info then pass them on to all you guys that have requested more info. (all while keeping the layers as layers and avaialble in the .dwg format)

Stay tuned here gents...hope to have understandable and complete maps here shortly!

Dan  8)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on December 01, 2009, 09:53:55 PM
Sorry for the delay in making maps available.

I am almost done but need to send them back to the Park to make sure I’ve interpreted the available land correctly.....

Stand by ladies and gents...we are almost there.


Dan  8) :o 8)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on December 08, 2009, 05:02:20 PM
OK Ladies and Gents,

After reviewing the 4 pieces of land and the ag leases that accompany each one, we have decided to pull the other 3 off the table for the time being.

85 Acres on the South side of the lake...WOW!!!

Paradise Point we can call it! (18-36-54-72 Baskets in Paradise)

The Map can be downloaded by going here- http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/Proposed%20Smithville%20DG%20Maps_Rev1.pdf

A Google Earth Map coordinate link can be downloaded by going here- http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/Paradise_Point_Disc_Golf_Entrance.zip

Coordinates for the entrance are-  Lat-  39°25'8.92"N, Long-  94°33'18.52"W (RED dot on Map)

This area has all the goodies we asked for...parking, water, trees, open, terrain changes, mowed frequently, etc...

Be sure to stay out of the Beach Area and the Harbor View Neighborhood areas when laying out this course!!

All designers who want to meet me at the land, be sure to check back here for dates when we can get together to do that. I will try to have a couple of times so if you miss one you might be able to make the second one.

Disc Golf in Smithville...you can bet your sweet arse it's gonna happen!!

BIG TIME!!!

Dan  8) :o 8)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on December 08, 2009, 05:43:43 PM
Here is a map showing more of the surrounding area- right next to the silly "ball" golf complex.

http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/Proposed_Smithville_DG_Map.jpg (http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/Proposed_Smithville_DG_Map.jpg)

This is prime land folks...we are lucky to say the least in getting a crack at this...best foot forward everyone!

REMEMBER-

1. Have the ability to play nice with others. (Dick Parker)  ;D

2. Look and fully understand the maps and provided materials when available. Would help if you or any applicant, had a complete understanding of current design standards, saftey standards, land utilizing concepts, insurance risks and policies, etc...

3. Be willing and prepared to "shock & awe" the disc golf world as we know it.


Dan  8)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: tannerdj on December 08, 2009, 09:44:14 PM
That land is perfect! Good hills, some woods, everything you need for a couple of good courses! we along those roads at least once a week for cross country practice. I can't wait to be able to bring my discs and just play a quick round after practice  ;D    I'd love to come out and volunteer to help build the new course when that begins! Keep us posted Dan and Thanks for all the hard work!
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: dickthediscparker on December 09, 2009, 07:16:48 AM
I don't get this whole playwith others bit but ok.  I tell you this.  This is KC.  When the Ego's start going I'll be the LEAST of your worries. 
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Captklank on December 09, 2009, 07:20:08 AM
U miss spelled EGO ,it is spelled LEO :o
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on December 09, 2009, 07:33:00 AM
Quote
I don't get this whole playwith others bit but ok.

Just trying to evoke a reaction out of you sir...job done!

Trying to get the first look at the course possibilities this weekend...hope you can make it Dick!

Stay tuned right here...will have some dates up soon for the walk thrus.

Dan  ::)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on December 11, 2009, 07:35:53 AM
1st Official Walk through of Paradise!!!

Sunday, Dec 13th, 10:00 am SHARP!!!

Meet at the Toll Booth. If you arrive late and want to find us...call my cell at 816-812-6265 and I will tell you where we are at.

Directions are super easy...

Take 169N out of downtown (Broadway Bridge) to Smithville. Stay on 169N to 180th Street. Turn right and follow the signs to the Paradise Point Silly Ball Golf Course!

Come on into the Park (NOT the Ball Golf Course) and wait by the Toll Booth. (I'll be in the black truck)

Not sure what all we will get accomplished but it would be awesome to start thinking of our land...a couple of guys already have several hours of recon under their belt!

Hope to see you all there. If you miss Sunday...we will have 1 more official Walk through later in the week.

Disc Golf in Smithville...It's Gonna Happen!!!

Dan  :o :o :o
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on December 11, 2009, 06:15:27 PM
OK....all you designers, please keep this in mind on your proposals...

So if  my math is correct,

and if Google Earth is accurate on their scale,

and if you are looking at the map file name- Proposed_Smithville_DG_Map.jpg (At 100%)

Then the following is a true representation of the correct map scale (map inches = actual feet)

(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/Distance_Conversion (Medium).jpg)

In other words, if your proposed hole is 446 foot, then your map drawing should be 1 inch.

Someone want to verify that for me please!!!

Dan  ::) ??? ::)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on December 11, 2009, 06:31:14 PM
Quote
1st Official Walk through of Paradise!!!

Did I mention FREE Beer!

Dan
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on December 13, 2009, 02:01:25 PM
Quote
1st Official Walk through of Paradise!!!

WOW...

that's all I can say at this point.

Dan  :o :o :o
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: tannerdj on December 13, 2009, 02:04:51 PM
sorry I couldn't make it out. how'd the walk through turn out?
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on December 13, 2009, 02:47:08 PM
Quote
how'd the walk through turn out?

Much to say and absorb in...

Will have details later on tonight.

Suffering from mild tolio...need to medicate and nap. 

Dan ;D
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on December 13, 2009, 08:51:01 PM
Still absorbing all that we saw today...did manage to shoot with the iPhone a 300++ degree panoramic show of one of the potential holes.

(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/Woodhenge.jpg)

Click here is you want the full sized one- www.danweinert.com/downloads/Woodhenge_lg.jpg

Tell me somewhere close where you are surrounded by water and have a couple of sweet, semi scary but very do-able holes?

Yea...I could not think of any either.

You guys are gonna likey!!!

PS- Sorry for the quality...the next panoramas I shoot will be with a real camera and indexed tripod.

Dan  :o :o :o

Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: elimnk on December 14, 2009, 08:45:49 AM
That looks like a lucrative spot to put the pro shop  :)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on December 14, 2009, 09:03:43 AM
Quote
That looks like a lucrative spot to put the pro shop 

I'd like to make a deal with the marina to sell discs (that they get from DGW). It will be the place to go for refreshments of all kinds, snacks, lunch etc...

Dan
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on December 14, 2009, 09:11:43 AM
Coming Soon!

I am working on guidelines for the designers on how to properly submit designs for the course(s)

Hope to have them up soon but it is gonna be a very crazy week.

The deadline has been relaxed...will wait for after the first of the year...maybe around the middle to end of January...

Stay tuned gents...

Dan
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on December 14, 2009, 03:03:17 PM
Heading out to the 'ville for a private tour....

Ur...I mean Official Walk Through #2

Gonna go see the tress again. With the nice stretches here and there, & without an over abundance of them, we will need to maximize the ones we have.

Some shots next to the trees, some in the trees & some out of the trees???

Dan
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on December 16, 2009, 07:44:09 PM
Quote
When the Ego's start going I'll be the LEAST of your worries. 

Can you elaborate sir...

Either here or pm me.

Dan  ???
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: tannerdj on December 16, 2009, 10:03:19 PM
we really appreciate all the work your putting in Dan, this should be one heck of a course
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on December 20, 2009, 11:23:14 AM
Heading out to the 'ville for a private tour again....

Ur...I mean Official Walk Through #3

Dan  ;)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on December 20, 2009, 05:58:05 PM
Heading out to the 'ville for a private tour again....

Ur...I mean Official Walk Through #3

Dan  ;)

Another WOW day...mile stones may have been made today in terms of the over all design concept.

Are you guys gonna like this...you bet your sweet arses you are!

Dan  ;)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: coops on January 06, 2010, 06:40:21 PM
Out of curiosity who else is planning on turning in a design? I am!
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 06, 2010, 09:14:39 PM
Quote
Out of curiosity who else is planning on turning in a design? I am!

For the sake of the program and not to scare anyone away, you might want to pm each other.

Thanks!

Dan  ::)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: coops on January 07, 2010, 06:49:51 AM
10-4... I guess I just wouldn't know who to PM :-\ ;D :D
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 07, 2010, 07:04:19 AM
Quote
10-4... I guess I just wouldn't know who to PM

Correct sir, but now they know to pm you!

Dan  ::)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 07, 2010, 07:49:56 AM
Designers- If you need them, here are links to .png files of baskets with transparent backgrounds. Your concept will be much easier to understand if you show us the baskets...as baskets.

Thanks guys!!!

To save, right click on the pic and do a Save Picture command. These files play real nice with Powerpoint (or any image program you may have!)

If you need any other type of image file...just give me a shout!

PS- These files look kinda rough at this size but look real nice at 2% to 5% (scale size for your maps)

Here are the links-

Red basket
(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/Red_Basket.png)

Yellow basket
(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/Yellow_Basket.png)

Orange basket
(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/Orange_Basket.png)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 09, 2010, 07:36:58 PM
Heading out to the 'ville again....neen some more recon!

Otherwise known as Official Walk Through #4

11:00 am

Dan   8)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 09, 2010, 07:39:25 PM
Someone asked me how the basket files above look when placed over a photo and sized...

Well now ya know!

(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/Dans_Baskets.jpg)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 10, 2010, 04:11:55 PM
I may have just witnessed the birthing of 57 basket locations.

May be a few scary ones in there boys...PLAY AT YOUR OWN RISK AND COMFORT LEVEL!!

If one of the course(s) freaks you out too much...you can always go west to the next course!

Shot an other pano this afternoon that I will post later...but the freakn' camera froze up on me and not sure what I got yet.

Dan  8)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: coops on January 10, 2010, 04:34:52 PM
57?!? That's more than 54  ;D
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 10, 2010, 04:36:46 PM
57?!? That's more than 54  ;D

+ 3 practice baskets sir = 57!!!

Dan  ;)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 12, 2010, 09:09:11 AM
Quote
Fill out the Design form for each course you are proposing. Be as complete as possible for all the info requested on this form. (SmithvilleDiscGolf_CourseDesign_Worksheet.xls) located here. (http://www.danweinert.com/CourseDesignInfo/SmithvilleDiscGolf_CourseDesign_Worksheet.xls)

PLEASE NOTE- One of the designers pointed out that my Excel Course Design Worksheet did not include the length of the hole in feet or the total feet of the course...NOW IT DOES!!!
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 13, 2010, 06:10:01 AM
Designers and all interested parties- Below are calculations for the cost of concrete, based on $110 per cubic yard. I think we can do better then that but for the purpose of bugeting, we can use these numbers. This does not include form wood, rebar or wire mesh and labor. (we do not need to be concerned on labor charges at this time!)

Based on a slab 3.5" thick-
(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/T-Pad_Calculator_3.5inches_Thick.jpg)

Based on a slab 5.5" thick-
(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/T-Pad_Calculator_5.5inches_Thick.jpg)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Keizer on January 13, 2010, 07:17:01 AM
Wow, concrete apparently costs much less than I thought. Let's all chip in and get some pads poured DU-- it'll be good practice for when it's time to pour the ones at Smithville. ;D
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: coops on January 13, 2010, 12:24:05 PM
Now how much to BV style pads cost? :P OK, so maybe they don't have to be that big. I'm a big fan of 6'x12' that are trapezoidal with the narrow end at the front. Really though, as long as they are textured well and are large enough, they will be great.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Kevin Simpson on January 13, 2010, 02:04:06 PM
Or, Dick's suggestion from a while back- 10 foot diameter circles.  :)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Tom on January 13, 2010, 02:10:38 PM
....don't it always seem to go, you don't know whatchu got til it's gone, they paved paradise and put up a parking lot....
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 13, 2010, 02:21:57 PM
Now how much to BV style pads cost? :P OK, so maybe they don't have to be that big. I'm a big fan of 6'x12' that are trapezoidal with the narrow end at the front. Really though, as long as they are textured well and are large enough, they will be great.

It's been awhile since Geometry class but I will look at some shapes next and do some more crete calculations tonight!

Dan
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 13, 2010, 02:27:31 PM
Or, Dick's suggestion from a while back- 10 foot diameter circles.  :)

Circle would be cool but I think no one runs the perimeter of the circle on the run up...they run from a far spot to the back to the front of the circle...the little wings on the side would go unused therefore wasted...

Now imagine a rectangular box rounded on front, square on back...or in otherwords...what Perry Lake just built!
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: dickthediscparker on January 13, 2010, 02:34:11 PM
Fountain hills has the 10 ft circles and they are GREAT pads.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Tom on January 13, 2010, 02:55:50 PM
I use a CAD program all day. Any shape by any depth I can easily model in 3d and the program can then easily measure the volume, so if you come up with a shape and wanna know how much crete it would take , lemme know. It's real easy.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: dickthediscparker on January 13, 2010, 03:16:37 PM
8 foot circle - 5.5" deep
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 13, 2010, 04:32:31 PM
8 foot circle - 5.5" deep = .85 cubic yards

9 foot circle - 5.5" deep = 1.08 cubic yards

10 foot circle - 5.5" deep = 1.33 cubic yards

11 foot circle - 5.5" deep = 1.61 cubic yards

12 foot circle - 5.5" deep = 1.92 cubic yards
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: dickthediscparker on January 13, 2010, 04:45:08 PM
10 foot circles it is :)  Just under 3000 a course.  Not counting wood gravel rebar wire mesh or labor
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: coops on January 13, 2010, 05:13:34 PM
My problem with circles is that it doesn't limit, enough, the area from which the throw should happen. The Trapezoids are good, in my opinion, because they allow multiple angles to be taken towards the desired launch point and don't make people step off the sides of pads but they also limit the launch point to what the designer has designed. The trapezoids don't have to be very pronounced to make a difference either. Maybe 5' on the front and 6' at the back and 12' long.
One other thing that can be really good to save a little bit of money in the budget (so we can use it elsewhere :P) is only making the full big sized pads on the bigger holes and the holes that are around 300-350 or less can have a smaller (though still spacious) version since those holes don't require as big of a run up. Just a thought.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Anthony Puryear on January 13, 2010, 05:19:04 PM
I like the trapezoids, but reversed of what Cooper likes. I like the wide end at the front. I feel like it allows you to use different angles for your run up. Opens up the door for more creative shots. I think Cliff Drive's Pads are great. But maybe smithville's could be a little more Pink  :P
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: dickthediscparker on January 13, 2010, 05:53:23 PM
Dying the concrete is a nice luxury but the cost is ridiculous and I'm sure you would want money in the right areas.  Cliff didn't have pads for 40 years so they had some money to burn.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: coops on January 13, 2010, 06:00:57 PM
Anthony-
I like the multiple angles to run up to too but I want to constrict the number of launching areas. The idea with the reverse of Cliff Tee Pads that I favor is that you can still do the multiple angles of run up but you just end at roughly the same point as everyone else whereas on the Cliff pads you start in the same place and end up in different places. Largely this is a matter of personal preference too. When designing a course I want to force people to use certain types of shots (not getting rid of all creativity though) to make sure that they can't throw the same shot over and over again and be successful, which is what more freedom at the front of the pad can allow for. But, like I said, it is a matter of preference.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 13, 2010, 06:46:07 PM
Dying the concrete is a nice luxury but the cost is ridiculous and I'm sure you would want money in the right areas.  Cliff didn't have pads for 40 years so they had some money to burn.

Who said colored concrete is ridiculous? It's not that much more!

Dan  ???
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: coops on January 13, 2010, 06:52:12 PM
between the two i'd rather have colored baskets
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 13, 2010, 07:37:31 PM
Fountain hills has the 10 ft circles and they are GREAT pads.

Like this sir...

(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/round_pads.jpg)

Dan  8)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 13, 2010, 07:42:04 PM
between the two i'd rather have colored baskets

Colored baskets are a must...that way no one gets confused and plays across different courses.

Oh the troubles of building a Complex...will it never end?

Dan  ;D
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: coops on January 13, 2010, 07:45:33 PM
between the two i'd rather have colored baskets

Colored baskets are a must...that way no one gets confused and plays across different courses.

Oh the troubles of building a Complex...will it never end?

Dan  ;D

And they are just sweet looking!
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Anthony Puryear on January 13, 2010, 10:27:11 PM
Do you know what kind of baskets you are going to be getting? You gonna get the Sunking ones like Down Under? I really liked the Neon Green DGA baskets they raffled off at worlds.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 13, 2010, 10:33:52 PM
Do you know what kind of baskets you are going to be getting? You gonna get the Sunking ones like Down Under? I really liked the Neon Green DGA baskets they raffled off at worlds.

We are currently looking at all brands...the designers are going to make their recommendations and we will go from there. The nice thing about the DU baskets is that they come in about 5,000 colors...and that aspect will be very important to the complex!

It seems like that style does not allow for the traditional hole marker on top...or can it?

Dan

PS- That manufacturer is Disk King!
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Keizer on January 13, 2010, 11:12:31 PM
The finish on the DU baskets is already starting to chip. Just sayin'...
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Tom on January 14, 2010, 06:42:34 AM
I hated the Discatchers we have at Prairie Center when they first went in. The clang sound when you hit the band too high was just irritating. After playing all types of baskets though, I now like Discatchers the best. They catch better than anything out there, and are very visible at a distance too. Try to get Discatchers at Smithville.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: dickthediscparker on January 14, 2010, 07:07:08 AM
Only come in 1 color.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: coops on January 14, 2010, 08:02:01 AM
Tom,
That is going to be my recommendation because I too think they are the best catching baskets available. And they do come in multiple colors, they are more expensive, but so is every other kind of basket when you get it colored.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 14, 2010, 09:43:56 AM
The finish on the DU baskets is already starting to chip. Just sayin'...

Is this a concern...just how bad is it?

More than normal wear and tear?
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: coops on January 14, 2010, 11:16:56 AM
I don't know about the wear but I do know a lot of people who have complained about the gauge of chain used in those baskets as being too small and allowing too many spit-outs. I think it is really important to put in the best catching basket we can to keep players happy and not feeling frustrated.
(I know that players will always complain when a putt falls out, but I think if we do everything we can to reduce that it will go a long way to keeping players loving these courses)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Schoen-hopper on January 14, 2010, 11:35:32 AM
My problem with circles is that it doesn't limit, enough, the area from which the throw should happen. The Trapezoids are good, in my opinion, because they allow multiple angles to be taken towards the desired launch point and don't make people step off the sides of pads but they also limit the launch point to what the designer has designed. The trapezoids don't have to be very pronounced to make a difference either. Maybe 5' on the front and 6' at the back and 12' long.
One other thing that can be really good to save a little bit of money in the budget (so we can use it elsewhere :P) is only making the full big sized pads on the bigger holes and the holes that are around 300-350 or less can have a smaller (though still spacious) version since those holes don't require as big of a run up. Just a thought.


I agree with this.  If I could shape a tee any way I wanted: 12' trapezoids bigger in the back would be the way to go.  And on short holes, a standard 4x10 could easily work.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 14, 2010, 01:15:21 PM
Quote
If I could shape a tee any way I wanted: 12' trapezoids bigger in the back would be the way to go....

So you mean the way Cliff was supposed to be...small end pointing towards the basket!

We debated and debated over that one at Cliff...some felt it might limit future hole ideas of we did that.

In all actuality...you could have some going both directions couldn’t you? (if future hole placements might be an issue due to soace or surrounding obstacles!)

Dan  :o
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: The Bird Father on January 14, 2010, 01:49:28 PM
I don't see any reason you would want the small part of a tee pad in the front (basket side)...everyones approach is different and for tall guys....more room at the front of the tee pad is always appreciated....you don't feel like you're running out of real estate as fast.  Bigger side of the pad in FRONT!!!!
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: coops on January 14, 2010, 01:53:49 PM
I think the idea isn't so much to make the front of the tee pad smaller as to make the back of the tee pad larger (and give is some snazzy wings), that way people can approach the front from several different angles but still have a launching area similar to most other tee pads.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: dclabe on January 14, 2010, 02:27:07 PM
The wide end should go to the front, it will give you more flexibility for future pin placements.   A good example is #5 at Swope, with pins both on the left & right.  One pin's shot is a anhyzer, the other is a hyzer.  The pad doesn't change the shot....it just gives you room to execute it.  An example where this teepad style would be handy is #9 at Olathe....when the pin is left, a righty backhand approaches across the teepad and essentially throws off the side of the pad.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: coops on January 14, 2010, 02:33:26 PM
EXACTLY!!! If that pad were a trapezoid with the narrow end at the front the RHBH player could throw the same way that they do with help on the tee pad (since they are approaching the shot from on the wing of the tee pad and not from off the tee pad as they currently have too). The narrow end at the front makes it to where they don't have the ability to take too much of that initial tree out of the way and to make the hole too easy.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Schoen-hopper on January 14, 2010, 06:00:20 PM
On the tee pads, if you want to offer more run-up angles, wide at the back is better.  Making them wide at the front doesn't do the same.  Say you want to throw an RHBH annhyzer, you would normally start at the right side of the pad and finish towards the middle or left.  But what if the left side is blocked out by a tree, then you are running up from off the pad or taking a crooked run-up.  Just saying, it isn't the same.  Multiple options off the tee is usually good.  But balancing the risk / reward for each route is difficult.  By doubling the front edge dimension of the pad, you may make 2 to 3 options into 4-6 and one of them makes all the rest obsolete and thus destroys the balance.  On a tunnel shot style hole, where there is one basic route, something like this wouldn't be a problem, but still wouldn't be better than big in the back, unless the intention is to give more options, make the hole easier.  5' is plenty on the front of any pad- you never see anyone slip off the sides, it is always the front because the pad is too short or it isn't level in the back so players can't add to their run up from beyond the pad.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: coops on January 14, 2010, 07:11:06 PM
On the tee pads, if you want to offer more run-up angles, wide at the back is better.  Making them wide at the front doesn't do the same.  Say you want to throw an RHBH annhyzer, you would normally start at the right side of the pad and finish towards the middle or left.  But what if the left side is blocked out by a tree, then you are running up from off the pad or taking a crooked run-up.  Just saying, it isn't the same.  Multiple options off the tee is usually good.  But balancing the risk / reward for each route is difficult.  By doubling the front edge dimension of the pad, you may make 2 to 3 options into 4-6 and one of them makes all the rest obsolete and thus destroys the balance.  On a tunnel shot style hole, where there is one basic route, something like this wouldn't be a problem, but still wouldn't be better than big in the back, unless the intention is to give more options, make the hole easier.  5' is plenty on the front of any pad- you never see anyone slip off the sides, it is always the front because the pad is too short or it isn't level in the back so players can't add to their run up from beyond the pad.

Yes! That is what I've been trying to get at but didn't want to take the time to write all of...
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 14, 2010, 09:57:12 PM
Quote
Innova made in China...

Really...you got documentation for this sir?

I got a couple of Innova stud champions on my advisoral committee....

We need to tread lightly here sir but you got my attention...

Dan
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Keizer on January 15, 2010, 03:00:47 AM
I'd like to see American-made DGAs used as well, but given most disc golfers affinity for foreign vehicles (Hey, we're in the midst of our worst economic state since the Great Depression, let's send more money to Japan and Korea! Fuggin' douchebags...), I don't think it's going to matter to most casual players. ???
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Tom on January 15, 2010, 06:57:00 AM
Baskets, DGA Mach III  powder coated.  Don't settle for anything less.  Innova made in China, DGA made in USA.  Get it together sir.  And Tom sorry to slam on your baskets. 


Mach III would be my second choice. They catch pretty good, but Innova Discatchers catch discs better than any other target made. If they are truly made in China, then it sucks that an American company can't make a target with as good a catching ability. 
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 15, 2010, 07:34:02 AM
Quote
Mach III would be my second choice

What about Mach V's?

Dan  ???
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Tom on January 15, 2010, 08:28:28 AM
I believe III's are the top of the line from DGA. I'd recommend Discatchers from Innova or Mach III from DGA. Discatchers are available in a bunch of different colors. I tried to find out if Innova baskets are made in China, but cannot verify that. Even if they are, since they catch best, and are available in a range of colors, I'd still recommend with Innova.   
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: coops on January 15, 2010, 08:40:45 AM
I like Innova too... and it isn't just because DISCatchers are $150 dollars cheaper than Mach IIIs. (a piece, not total). Overall I'm OK with Mach Vs, I think they play better and look better than Mach IIIs but they still aren't as good as DISCatchers.
And I agree with Tom, let's buy the best baskets here, regardless of where they may or may not be made.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: jamidanger on January 15, 2010, 10:29:45 AM
American made state of the art(iron age)--------Gateway Titan Pro-24 baskets should be considered. BTW the traditional number plates damage discs, be innovative with flags or dome tops(no nickel). FYI circular pads lend the most creativity for artistic drives, I'm not a huge fan of directional pads, although BV pads are the best I've ever seen so far.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Anthony Puryear on January 15, 2010, 10:48:20 AM
The Titan basket is pretty intriguing. Anyone tried one out yet? It sounds like it s a pretty beefy basket. They show a red one, but not sure if they can do other colors, or if the red is just a practice basket? Not sure. Plus it says that any 18 hole course installation also gets 300 custom stamped discs. Perfect for the first Smithville Tournament or 2 :)

http://gdstour.com/gateway_titan_portable_disc_golf_basket.php (http://gdstour.com/gateway_titan_portable_disc_golf_basket.php)

I will say that i know some people don't like the innova basket. Not sure about the USA thing, but I think if one of the premier disc golf courses in the world, (if not THE #1 course) Winthrop Gold, home of the USDGC, uses AMERICAN FLAG Innova Discatchers then that is a pretty good endorsement as far as I am concerned :) Nothing against the Mach baskets. I like them too, but if they are really $150 more, this seems like a no brainer.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: john theiss on January 15, 2010, 11:42:24 AM
Baskets, DGA Mach III  powder coated.  Don't settle for anything less.  Innova made in China, DGA made in USA.  Get it together sir.  And Tom sorry to slam on your baskets. 

Can you get the Mach 3's powder coated?  I thought it was only the 2's and 5's.    I do not think the 3's are listed under the options for powder coating, but i thought that i remembered seeing a picture of a Mach 3 powder coated on the website one time.  I remember thinking how cool the 3's looked powder coated. 

Interesting debate on baskets though.  It seems that so many people are divided between the M3's and the Discatchers.  I know that Olatha's baskets are getting up there in age, but the rust on the belt looks nasty.  that has always left kind of bad taste in my mouth.  If you pay big bucks for hunks of metal, you expect them to last.  Plus, some of the chains at Legacy were showing some signs of rust.  i talked to Innova about that when i was looking at baskets for Young park. 
John
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: jamidanger on January 15, 2010, 01:50:46 PM
Gateway Titans can be played at the newer courses in the Lou, most notably Unger Park(along the Meramac River). They're beefy for sure, built to last a lifetime and very heavy to move. I'm not sure of the prices per basket or cost for powdercoating, but I'd have no problem spraypainting them, maybe change colors every few years or so, or even just for a St. Paddy's tournament.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: coops on January 15, 2010, 04:31:02 PM
DISCatchers are $150 dollars cheaper than Mach IIIs. (a piece, not total).

Where do you guys think that $150 savings comes from? (hint: manufacturers have saved a lot of money that is passed on to the consumer by having products made at overseas locations)

I was wrong, it is only $120... and that is according to DGAs website.

As for the belt rusting too quickly, that has not been my experience at all... The baskets at Olathe have been in a long time and they are still in great shape. They may have been repainted at some point, I don't know, but whatever was done, if anything to them, they still work really well.

And as for hating the 'clank' the belt makes when you miss too high, I have a really good remedy for that. Don't miss too high! No, seriously though, I love the belt at the top not only because it is highly visible but also because it doesn't damage your disc like the nickel on top of Mach IIIs or even the stubby look at the top. Plus, I've seen a lot of guys make putts on Mach IIIs that hit where the belt would have been and then they do like 3 summersaults, a backflip, and a half lutz. Those putts are lucky and they should be avoided if at all possible.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Keizer on January 15, 2010, 04:48:57 PM
I will say that i know some people don't like the innova basket. Not sure about the USA thing, but I think if one of the premier disc golf courses in the world, (if not THE #1 course) Winthrop Gold, home of the USDGC, uses AMERICAN FLAG Innova Discatchers then that is a pretty good endorsement as far as I am concerned :) Nothing against the Mach baskets. I like them too, but if they are really $150 more, this seems like a no brainer.

A lot of people sport American flags on their Toyotas and Hondas, too. I'm sure those standing in unemployment lines take great consolation in that. ::)

Anybody wanna buy a couple of Chinese made DB5 baskets? I didn't know they were made in China until after I'd bought them, and I'm looking to get rid of them for $100 apiece.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: twoDornottwoD on January 15, 2010, 11:22:46 PM
Gateway Titans can be played at the newer courses in the Lou, most notably Unger Park(along the Meramac River). They're beefy for sure, built to last a lifetime and very heavy to move. I'm not sure of the prices per basket or cost for powdercoating, but I'd have no problem spraypainting them, maybe change colors every few years or so, or even just for a St. Paddy's tournament.
I like the idea in theory Danger, but in my experience, spray painting is a good way to ruin a basket if it gets on the chains.  the chains really need to be removed before spray painting and reattached after the paint dries.  chains with paint tend to be stiff with less action.  speed of putts becomes more critical.  putts slightly high especially, tend to have no chance.  lot of work for a st pattys day tourney.  stick with green clothes, green discs, green beer, or anything else green that might make your irish holiday round more fun.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Timko on January 16, 2010, 06:37:42 PM
There are Titans on both the Ozark Mountain courses in Vichy.  They catch fine, and have a very minimalist look to them.  I've never been a big fan of the Innova chastity belt, but the Innova basket catches more spin type putts than an Mach III.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: John Chapman on January 17, 2010, 02:50:23 PM
There are Titans on both the Ozark Mountain courses in Vichy.  They catch fine, and have a very minimalist look to them.  I've never been a big fan of the Innova chastity belt, but the Innova basket catches more spin type putts than an Mach III.



I agree.  Both the Titan and the DISCatcher catch better than the Mach III.  DISCatchers already in place have had a history of rusting early. although I know that Innova was aware of the issue, and was supposedly trying to fix it with the newer ones.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 17, 2010, 03:19:27 PM
Here are photos of four possible baskets...

Am I missing anything?

DGA Mach III
(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/DGA_Mach3.jpg)

Disc King Kingpin (DU Baskets)
(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/DiscKing_Kingpin.jpg)

Gateway Titan
(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/Gateway_Titan.jpg)

Innova Discatcher
(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/Innova_Discatcher.jpg)

Seems like thay all have pro and cons...I am developing a list now to sort through all the clutter and try to see if one makes more sense then the others.

PS- We could also go this route...

(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/Silly.jpg)

(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/Silly_1.jpg)

Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Timko on January 17, 2010, 04:05:39 PM
There's also a basket made by Missouri native Disc Golf Monkey called the Monkey Trap.  They look nice, and they're galvanized.

(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee18/dgdave/101_4125.jpg)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: dickthediscparker on January 17, 2010, 05:25:41 PM
I vote for Mach III but I dont' care really either way.  As long as it isn't that funky cresent moon shaped POS. 

I have heard that Cubby has invented a basket... out of lattice!
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 17, 2010, 06:02:47 PM
Quote
FYI circular pads lend the most creativity for artistic drives...

Quote
Or, Dick's suggestion from a while back- 10 foot diameter circles...

I am trying to buy into the concept of 10' diameter pads but the extra work in excavation and framing concern me...a lot.

Anybody want to come up with some solutions for both of those concerns?

Dan  8)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: coops on January 17, 2010, 08:22:34 PM
I am glad that Tom and Cooper have no problem with buying products made in China.  Maybe you guys can order the baskets off Wal-Mart.com.   I like buying made in USA to keep Americans working.  If you can make a putt in a discatcher then you should be able to make a putt in any basket.  Quit buying crap made in China if you can help it.  Tom aren't you an engineer, maybe you can move to Shanghai and play disc golf, or Korea.  Better put a car alarm on Gus.

Unfortunately walmart.com does not sell disc golf baskets.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 17, 2010, 08:26:56 PM
I am glad that Tom and Cooper have no problem with buying products made in China.  Maybe you guys can order the baskets off Wal-Mart.com.   I like buying made in USA to keep Americans working.  If you can make a putt in a discatcher then you should be able to make a putt in any basket.  Quit buying crap made in China if you can help it.  Tom aren't you an engineer, maybe you can move to Shanghai and play disc golf, or Korea.  Better put a car alarm on Gus.

I'd still like to see written proof of the 'Made in China" claim.

Does that exist MOSPARKY? Not doubting your word sir...just like to see it in writing!

Dan
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: coops on January 17, 2010, 08:38:15 PM
I have two points... and the first is taken by Lefty Dan as I am writing this... how does everyone know that they are Chinese made instead of American made. I've looked for it and still haven't found it. And the second is this, http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2009/apr/07/business/chi-tue-made-in-usa-0407-apr07. Not saying this is a definitive answer about whether you should or should not buy American 100% of the time, but it does have some interesting points made in it. And, think about this, Innova is an American Company which, if it does produce its baskets in China does so for a reason, i.e. to production costs which allows them to keep their products competitive with other companies which allows us as disc golfers to increase our buying power and thus further support the American economy by buying more stuff.
The global economy isn't a black and white subject and is more complex than most if not all of us can fully understand and I think it is foolish for us to base our decisions about the best course equipment on something so confusing. Undoubtedly if Innova does produce baskets in China they are doing it for a reason such as keeping disc prices low or being able to pay the people who work to produce the discs in Rancho Cucamonga.
I think we should get the main point of this thread back on topic and focus on what we can do to make this one of the best disc golfing destinations in the area if not the world and the way that we will do that is by consciously deciding to focus on productive thoughts such as design, choosing the best equipment, tee shape and size, and appropriate shock 'n' awe features for the course so that we can get more people hooked on disc golf. (And then they can help us support the economy more by buying countless discs from DGA, Innova, Discraft, Gateway, and all of the other great American disc manufacturers.)


So, new idea up for debate, how close is too close for a basket to be to OB? My personal opinion, 20 ft min and 30 ft preferable. Discuss...
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Schoen-hopper on January 17, 2010, 11:23:01 PM
I like holes where the OB narrows on one or both sides of the fairway as it gets closer to the green.  The longer you know, the more the need for accuracy.  But I think you have to keep the OB at a reasonable distance from the basket.  Shots that land OB should be the result of a poor decision, a poor execution, or both.  It shouldn't be left to "luck" or chance, such as an OB line too close to trees on a main fairway route, or a basket that spits a putt that rolls OB.  OB is generally the lowest point, like a road or a pond.  So this can increase the chance that shots will land there and more distance should be given for close to the basket situations the lower it is from the basket.  If OB is used next to a basket, I would think you would put it somewhere where an advanced player might make the putt half the time.  Maybe around 35'.  Then pros can limit the amount the OB punishes them, but it still takes a good shot.  For OB near the edges of the fairway, a 50/50% chance of getting up & down makes sense as well.  For OB around the green, you almost always see it behind the basket.  If a player knows they can make the putt from the OB line, they can use this as insurance instead of having to face a tough decision.  I think that having OB in front is more interesting.  Then a player has to decide to lay up or go for it on the drive or approach.  Then the player who runs at the shot and runs too far past has to again make a decision because if they go past this time they'll be OB and looking at a big number.  In the end, I think it is situational.  On an open flat course, some guidelines may work pretty well.  But in more unique situations, some exceptions might actually add some flavor.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Keizer on January 18, 2010, 07:00:23 AM
I have two points... and the first is taken by Lefty Dan as I am writing this... how does everyone know that they are Chinese made instead of American made. I've looked for it and still haven't found it. And the second is this, http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2009/apr/07/business/chi-tue-made-in-usa-0407-apr07. Not saying this is a definitive answer about whether you should or should not buy American 100% of the time, but it does have some interesting points made in it.

It's written by some Asian %$#@er with an anti-American agenda. And Fritz Henderson had to say what he said because of political-correctness. Truth is, the more popular Asian products have become in this country, the worse our economy and unemployment situation has gotten. You don't have to watch the news or read articles to see that. The Jap and Korean auto companies have done a wonderful job convincing stupid Americans that buying their products doesn't hurt American jobs. "Look! It's built right here!", or whatever they say. What they don't tell you is that it's not built here, it's assembled here using fewer employees at a lesser hourly wage.

I don't get all into the "WHAAA 9/11 NEVR FORGT AMERICA %$#@ YEAH!" stuff, but seriously, look at what the rest of the world, especially the Asian countries, did to help us out after 9/11. It wasn't much. Then keep telling yourself it's a "global economy". That's a cop-out if I ever heard one. Ain't nobody gonna help your ass besides your fellow countrymen, and even that's not guaranteed if all the folks driving foreign cars is any indication.

What I'm saying here is that Smithville ought to have Mach III baskets.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: MOSPARKY on January 18, 2010, 07:14:29 AM
Amen Keiser, I started new thread so designers wouldn't get mad.  Even though baskets are part of the design.  Good luck to all designers on the project.  Although I don't see much designer talk on this thread.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: coops on January 18, 2010, 08:41:34 AM
I like holes where the OB narrows on one or both sides of the fairway as it gets closer to the green.  The longer you know, the more the need for accuracy.  But I think you have to keep the OB at a reasonable distance from the basket.  Shots that land OB should be the result of a poor decision, a poor execution, or both.  It shouldn't be left to "luck" or chance, such as an OB line too close to trees on a main fairway route, or a basket that spits a putt that rolls OB.  OB is generally the lowest point, like a road or a pond.  So this can increase the chance that shots will land there and more distance should be given for close to the basket situations the lower it is from the basket.  If OB is used next to a basket, I would think you would put it somewhere where an advanced player might make the putt half the time.  Maybe around 35'.  Then pros can limit the amount the OB punishes them, but it still takes a good shot.  For OB near the edges of the fairway, a 50/50% chance of getting up & down makes sense as well.  For OB around the green, you almost always see it behind the basket.  If a player knows they can make the putt from the OB line, they can use this as insurance instead of having to face a tough decision.  I think that having OB in front is more interesting.  Then a player has to decide to lay up or go for it on the drive or approach.  Then the player who runs at the shot and runs too far past has to again make a decision because if they go past this time they'll be OB and looking at a big number.  In the end, I think it is situational.  On an open flat course, some guidelines may work pretty well.  But in more unique situations, some exceptions might actually add some flavor.

I agree with most of what you are saying here, but I think I need to clarify my point a little bit. I think OB should be at the closets 20ft ONLY when it isn't too expansive around the pin. For example, if there is a little pond 20-25 ft away from the pin but it is only towards the left edge of the green I would expect players to account for the type of OB and to either challenge the pin and take the risk or play it safer out towards the right and see if they can still get close enough for the bird. I guess the main point of questioning OB is to question whether it is fair for the player throwing good shots and one of the main thoughts that comes out of that is that you can still throw a good shot and land OB if you didn't take the OB into consideration, but then did you really make a good shot?

Can anybody think of a good way to have a bunch of artificial OB without rope or paint, both of which are time consuming and expensive? (I know roads and water and paths and whatnot, I'm saying where that isn't available.)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 18, 2010, 09:22:39 AM
Quote
Can anybody think of a good way to have a bunch of artificial OB without rope or paint, both of which are time consuming and expensive? (I know roads and water and paths and whatnot, I'm saying where that isn't available.)

Seems to me we use landscaping to fit in with the natural look of the park. Many of the native grasses, when planted in thin strips would make excellent OB's.

Dan
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: coops on January 18, 2010, 09:30:11 AM
Yeah, I like that idea and have incorporated it into a couple of my holes (for the already in place natural tall grass). One would still have to paint or put up some rope for a big enough tournament and there is the problem of it being harder to find your disc in tall grass than if it just passes over a road. But good thinking, definitely a step in the right direction. (Do you know if the parks department is willing to plant more grass?)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: jamidanger on January 18, 2010, 11:15:16 AM
JB Rolling Hills, Lamoni, Iowa uses a lawnmower to define the OB, tall grass=OB........that's how I played the Smithville 9 anyway.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: dickthediscparker on January 18, 2010, 12:28:29 PM
JB Rolling Hills, Lamoni, Iowa uses a lawnmower to define the OB, tall grass=OB........that's how I played the Smithville 9 anyway.

They use to Jamie. They changed that rule the last time we were there.  Though I did appreciate that .  The main reason they did that was because every fairway touched another fairway. 
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 18, 2010, 02:24:03 PM
Quote
Do you know if the parks department is willing to plant more grass?

They are going to let us make all the reccomendations we want and I have a feeling that as long as they make sense and enhance the area, they should not have a problem with any of it.

Dan
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 19, 2010, 07:49:34 AM
Quote
Just on a logistics note. Is Smithville Lake really prepared to adequately to service (mowing, trimming, trash) for 3 courses?

It is already the best mowed park in town...they know what they need to do. Good question though. Seems my job is to make sure there are NO surprises for anyone...US or THEM!

Thanks to all who participated in the basket discussion. I see the situation more clearly now!

Wanting to keep an open mind on all t-box options, I still have concerns over the circular t-pads. Mainly in construction and excavation issues. I am going to check in with the Fountain Hill’s folk about their 10’ round pads. What they learned, how they did it and the reaction from those that play on it.

I know the designers are still working their butts off with all the land walking and such. General guidelines say walk for at least 8 hours…I know they have done more then that and we will have many more hours of walking and testing BEFORE anything gets set in stone…OK…concrete! THANKS GUYS!!!
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Anthony Puryear on January 19, 2010, 12:43:19 PM
Just Spitballing here, but has anyone looked into Rubber Tee Pads instead of concrete? I've never used them so I am in the dark. But I know several courses have them. Obviously there could be the issue of keeping them level, but its at least an idea. Not sure if it is any more cost effective. But when putting in 3 courses, it couldn't hurt to look into.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: dickthediscparker on January 19, 2010, 01:02:45 PM
They fall apart over time.  Not worth it unless you can NOT do concrete for whatever reason.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 19, 2010, 01:10:36 PM
Quote
Not worth it unless you can NOT do concrete for whatever reason...

Relax boys...concrete is in the budget!

Dan  :o
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 19, 2010, 11:36:36 PM
KC Disc Golf Club gave encouraging words to the 'Ville Complex idea tonight...THANKS GUYS!!!

Dan  8)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 19, 2010, 11:41:47 PM
Quote

Wanting to keep an open mind on all t-box options, I still have concerns over the circular t-pads. Mainly in construction and excavation issues. I am going to check in with the Fountain Hill’s folk about their 10’ round pads. What they learned, how they did it and the reaction from those that play on it.

Production issue(s) solved...photos and step by step production plan drawn up and approved. (I will review in the am and make all the photos)

Now...what do people think about round t-pads?

Waste of concrete or genuis?

Dan
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Schoen-hopper on January 20, 2010, 01:03:47 AM
I'm sure they would be nice.  Here's some possible negatives though.

-They don't point to the pin, which is not helpful to first timers at the course.  If really good signs were installed & course maps available at the course, this might not be too bad.
-What can they do that a trapezoid cannot?  Run up sideways?  Seems a trapezoid gives more room for run-ups. 
-A 12' trapezoid costs less than a 10' circle.  What were the numbers? 
-Most importantly, if the expensive circles cut down on the chances of having dual tees, that would be a shame.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 20, 2010, 07:38:37 AM
Not saying we're gonna build these but if we were, here is how I would want to do it...the 10' circle t-pads that is!

Lay 10' Master over desired t-pad location and mark outer diameter-
(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/10'_T-pads_1.jpg)

Remove master & clear grass and dirt, make level as much as possible-
(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/10'_T-pads_2.jpg)

Lay 10' Master back over desired t-pad location, screw bender board around master and secure with stakes as indicated-
(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/10'_T-pads_3.jpg)

Once staked, unscrew master and remove, add rebar or mesh, fill with colored concrete, screed, float, rough broom finish, edge, let cure, remove form and enjoy!-
(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/10'_T-pads_4.jpg)

Dan  ::) :o ::)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Tom on January 20, 2010, 08:04:32 AM
another option would be to contact Wilson Precast Concrete here in KC and get a quote for these big round fellers. They could cast em, deliver em, and with some grade work to set em level, they could be set in place. You could even have some recessed lifting lugs in em if you ever wanted to pick em up and relocate em.

I always like a huge tee box myself. 10' dia may not be big enough. I would suggest simply building boxes with the same dimensions as Wyco's tee boxes. The only problem with boxes that big are the nuisance helicopter landings that sometime occur.  ;D

Concrete structure design is what I do a lot of, so if ya have any questions about concrete I can usually come up with an informed opinion.  ???
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: jamidanger on January 20, 2010, 09:46:33 AM
Large round concrete pads are genius. Tee signage should be away from the pads for unobstructed safari routes for sure.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: coops on January 20, 2010, 09:54:28 AM
I like the trapezoids, but maybe on a few of the more open holes the big circles make sense. The pads don't have to be uniform throughout the course, just look at Blue Valley! Maybe the case by case on  each hole would make a lot of sense.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: john theiss on January 20, 2010, 10:18:04 AM
If you do not keep things uniform, it becomes very troublesome for those pouring the pads.  Anytime pads go in, there can be a great deal of problems due to the lack of disc golf knowledge of the workers.  Ask Dirk.  When they start pouring and forming problems can arise.  Some folks from the club will need to be there to avoid any problems.  I have a pad a Young park that is off by a couple feet, even though it was marked with flags near the pad and then marked wiht flags 50 feet in front of the pad to help line it out. 

Keep it simple or plan on being there for every pad poured.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 20, 2010, 10:19:51 AM
I like the trapezoids, but maybe on a few of the more open holes the big circles make sense. The pads don't have to be uniform throughout the course, just look at Blue Valley! Maybe the case by case on  each hole would make a lot of sense.

I like trapezoids too...would like to turn some short end first on some hole, some long end first on some holes and maybe squeeze in some circles on Woodhenge.

Would insist on 16ft long...the pros I talked to at Cliff spotting for the Worlds this year loved them...A LOT!!!

Dan
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 20, 2010, 10:21:21 AM
If you do not keep things uniform, it becomes very troublesome for those pouring the pads.  Anytime pads go in, there can be a great deal of problems due to the lack of disc golf knowledge of the workers.  Ask Dirk.  When they start pouring and forming problems can arise.  Some folks from the club will need to be there to avoid any problems.  I have a pad a Young park that is off by a couple feet, even though it was marked with flags near the pad and then marked wiht flags 50 feet in front of the pad to help line it out. 

Keep it simple or plan on being there for every pad poured.


Under control sir...it's how I roll!

Dan  ;D
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Schoen-hopper on January 20, 2010, 11:10:38 AM
If you do not keep things uniform, it becomes very troublesome for those pouring the pads.  Anytime pads go in, there can be a great deal of problems due to the lack of disc golf knowledge of the workers.  Ask Dirk.  When they start pouring and forming problems can arise.  Some folks from the club will need to be there to avoid any problems.  I have a pad a Young park that is off by a couple feet, even though it was marked with flags near the pad and then marked wiht flags 50 feet in front of the pad to help line it out. 

Keep it simple or plan on being there for every pad poured.


Other problems can come up too.   We had some of our pads in Oak Park poured too high off the ground.  Hard to run up & follow through and don't look as good as those flush within an inch of the ground.  And sometimes I've seen pads that are finished too slick.  The heavier the broom finish, the better.  I've seen some pads that look like they were cast and brought to the course (Newton).  They aren't pretty, but have great traction!
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: john theiss on January 20, 2010, 12:08:13 PM
Mike S.H. has a great point.  If you want your course to have the nice touches, the pads need to be dug out with a skid and be flush to the ground.  Then after the pads are poured, they come back and do the dirt work around the pads giving you nice flat run up surfaces.  Think about all of the courses you play where you or others trip over the pads, whether throwing or not.  Plus,you want to be able to allow the mowers access to drive right over the pads and cut. 

The operator of the skid can get confused with all different shapes and dimensions so you have to make it as easy as possible for them.  Here is a tip: take flags and stake them in  30-40 feet in front of the pads.  this will give the skid operator a place to line up the machine. I am assuming some tees will require major dirt work to level it off.  By the time of dropping a bunch of dirt, all the old flags will be ran over, lost and destroyed.   By placing the flags out in front, it gives the skid operator a point of reference.  He will appreciate little tips like that becuase he does not understand where the fairway is, or where the basket is.  After you get the dirt work done, i might even be helpful to do the same idea with flags marking 30-40 feet in front of the tee boxes in case someone can't be  present.  I was not always able to be around when 35 pads were poured at Young park and mistakes get made. 
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: otter on January 20, 2010, 12:29:48 PM
I realize that concrete cracks...it's just a fact of life.  But, how thick must a concrete teepad be to withstand the weight of P&R mowers?  Would guess them to weigh in at 1700-2000+ lbs...

 
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: twoDornottwoD on January 20, 2010, 11:25:12 PM
most sidewalks are built 2".  Runways at airports are usually closer to 12".  i would think a happy medium would be sufficient
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Keizer on January 21, 2010, 12:03:23 AM
most sidewalks are built 2".  Runways at airports are usually closer to 12".  i would think a happy medium would be sufficient

The pad thicknesses at Cliff vary a bit, but I would guess that none are thicker than 5". I'd put the average at just over 4".

Penis.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Tom on January 21, 2010, 06:33:36 AM
most sidewalks are built 2".  Runways at airports are usually closer to 12".  i would think a happy medium would be sufficient


2" for sidewalks and 12" for runways? Maybe for radio controlled planes.

I spent 2 years as the resident engineer on a boulevard (Quindaro)re-construction in KCK. The standards we used were:
-for residental sidewalks 4" thick non-reinforced 3000 lb air entrained concrete
-for commercial sidewalks 5" thick 6x6-4.0x4.0 welded wire fabric reinforced 3000 lb air entrained concrete

I spent 3 years as the resident engineer on an Air Force base aircraft apron re-constructionh project. The concrete there was:
-for general aircraft taxi and parking 18" non-reinforced 4000 lb air entrained concrete on 12" structural sub-base
-for areas where transports such as the C5 or bombers such as the B1 or B52 would taxi and park 24" non-reinforced 4000 lb air entrained concrete on 18" structural sub-base
-the runways were 24" thick but the touchdown zones at each end were 36" thick

If you use 2x6 lumber for forms it will give you roughly 4 1/2" to 5 1/2" thickness. That thickness with some 6x6-W4.0xW4.0 welded wire fabric and 4000 pound air entrained concrete will give you pads that will last a very long time. Ideally the ground is fairly level where the pad is being built, but the thing to do is make sure the top of the forms are aproximnately 1 1/2" higher than the highest spot of ground all around the box out 5 feet or so. This prevents washover of silt later.
I would suggest if the corps is going to hire this done, that one of the course designers is there during excavation and form setting to ensure correect alignment. You can simply paint on the ground the outline you want for the box and the skid loader operator can use that to do the cut. Then, when the forms are being set, be there and make sure they get them lined up right.
If you have questions about concrete and tees, I'll be glad to help.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 21, 2010, 04:47:18 PM
Traezoids are a bit tougher to figure volume for...I did not want to crack open my old geometry book so I asked Tom Butler to calculate the amount of concrete needed for the following-

16ft long trapeziod, 8ft backs, 4ft fronts in both 3.5" and 5.5" thick-
(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/smithville tee-boxes_1.jpg)

12ft long trapeziod, 8ft backs, 4ft fronts in both 3.5" and 5.5" thick-
(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/smithville tee-boxes_2.jpg)

He also threw in a cross section showing proper elevation-
(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/smithville tee-boxes_3.jpg)

AWESOME JOB TOM!!!! Thank you!!!
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: coops on January 21, 2010, 04:56:27 PM
Very nice
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 21, 2010, 05:18:46 PM
Quote
And sometimes I've seen pads that are finished too slick.  The heavier the broom finish, the better.

I have used the regular push broom on many projects but will use the astroturf method on these babies...the guys I have chatted with says it gives an awesome surface...plenty of traction. (pics stolen from Innova's Web site)

(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/tee_1.jpg) (http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/tee_2.jpg)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Keizer on January 21, 2010, 06:24:59 PM
For durability/cost purposes, I'd vote for the 12' pads at 5-1/2" thick. I've seen very few players actually take full advantage of the 16' pads at Cliff. Of course, you could go 12' on most holes and 16' on any crazy long holes there might be.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Tom on January 22, 2010, 07:32:59 AM
.....or they could be 14' long trapezoids, 5" thick. 
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 22, 2010, 07:44:19 AM
.....or they could be 28' long trapezoids, 2.5" thick.

KCI could rent them out as backup runways!

Dan  ;D
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Keizer on January 22, 2010, 08:39:49 AM
Now you're just being silly, Chief.

In that picture with the "astro turf", is that really what that it is? It looks more like one of those doormats with the brushy texture for wiping off muddy shoes.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 22, 2010, 08:56:53 AM
Now you're just being silly, Chief.

In that picture with the "astro turf", is that really what that it is? It looks more like one of those doormats with the brushy texture for wiping off muddy shoes.

Same thing...the randomness of the bristles is what does the trick.

Looking forward to actually getting to texture these bad boys!

Dan  8)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Schoen-hopper on January 22, 2010, 09:06:11 AM
Could you do 4.5" thick".  I'd say the longer you make them, the thicker they should be and the more important the levelling and tamping is before the pour.  Does 5' at the front of the trapezoids make players happier?
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 22, 2010, 10:58:22 AM
Could you do 4.5" thick".  I'd say the longer you make them, the thicker they should be and the more important the levelling and tamping is before the pour.  Does 5' at the front of the trapezoids make players happier?

The dimensions of 3.5" and 5.5" are based on using either 2" x 4"s or 2" x 6"s. I am a fan of using 2" x 6"s so I have a built in footing then control the depth in the middle...by doing this, we could get by with a 4.5" middle secion with a 5.5" perimeter footing. I am also getting rebar/mesh in the budget. All secondary pads per hole (where needed) will be of mominal size...4' x 8' or 5' x 10"ish
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Schoen-hopper on January 22, 2010, 11:09:01 AM
When I did concrete work: for 4" sidewalk work, we used a wire mesh that would roll out and lay flat.  For bigger pours we'd used rebar all wire tied together.  The rebar has got to be more expensive- I'm not sure it would be needed.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Tom on January 22, 2010, 11:51:46 AM
The mesh I called out is only available in flat sheets. The roll out stuff is too difficult to maintain proper cover, and is lighter gage. #3 or #4 bar spaced at approx 9" each way would be even better than the mesh.

Well oiled 2 x 6 lumber forms are the way to go as well, just like Lefty said.

Additionally, the key to non-cracking pavement is a uniformly compacted sub-base.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: john theiss on January 22, 2010, 12:49:44 PM
Tom, how important is it to have a gravel base?  Is it even necessary?  i have seen folks often times drop gravel down after the skid comes in.  then rebar or mesh  is added on top.

What are the pro cons of dropping in gravel?  And expense wise is it worth it?
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Tom on January 22, 2010, 01:09:04 PM
Tom, how important is it to have a gravel base?  Is it even necessary?  i have seen folks often times drop gravel down after the skid comes in.  then rebar or mesh  is added on top.

What are the pro cons of dropping in gravel?  And expense wise is it worth it?

Crushed rock below the pad is not that important on tee box pads. The crushed rock can help alleviate frost heave. It's a little easier to fine grade than soil as well, which let's you control the pad thickness. 

The most important thing about what's below the pad (whether crushed rock or just soil) is that uniform compaction is done. A uniformly compacted base will help the pad from cracking when a truck or mower rolls over it.
 
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Kevin Montgomery on January 22, 2010, 01:19:52 PM
I recall at WyCo they used sand as the base below the pad. It was smoothed and compacted before the poured. Is that something done along with crushed rock under it or is sand recommended at all?
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Schoen-hopper on January 22, 2010, 01:34:29 PM
The crew I worked with always used sand.  No gravel usually needed.  Sand tamps down really well.  If it's dug out well, I don't think a whole lot would be needed.  Although it would add up fast with 18 big tees.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Tom on January 22, 2010, 01:41:33 PM
Sand is OK in a confined space form, as long as it's saturated. Crushed rock (AB-3) is best.
Honestly though, I'd just make sure there is no topsoil or organic material below the pad, and compact the soil well. Also, it's best not to pour concrete on a base that's real dry.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Keizer on January 22, 2010, 07:30:49 PM
Dan, are gonna be ready to manhandle that compactor again? Or shall we rent a steam roller?
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 24, 2010, 04:38:10 PM
One week left boys and girls...for the designs to be done. Be sure you have accounted for all Design Guidelines and be prepared to defend your answers and plan.

Can't wait to see the future of Disc Golf...'ville style!

Dan  ;)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 24, 2010, 04:46:06 PM
Dan, are gonna be ready to manhandle that compactor again? Or shall we rent a steam roller?

We got about 17 different soil types and configuations...

I should make the designers aware of that and for extra credit, they tell me what type of soil they have under their t-boxes and how do we deal with that type of soil. (sandy, dry, wet, clay, loam. ect...)

Maybe a chance for Course Concrete VP Tom to help us if needed. The right treatment and underlayment will make any soil issue go away.

To answer your question sir...I'll be VP Level/Final Placement guy again, you can be VP in charge of all Stake Issues and we will leave the Mr. Tamper Machine for the young-ins...that kinda kicked my arse last time at Spooky!

Dan  ::) 8) ::)

PS- We got some cool Park tools in the Clay County tool shed...must take inventory to see what all we got!  ;)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: coops on January 24, 2010, 10:25:01 PM
Dan, are gonna be ready to manhandle that compactor again? Or shall we rent a steam roller?

We got about 17 different soil types and configuations...

I should make the designers aware of that and for extra credit, they tell me what type of soil they have under their t-boxes and how do we deal with that type of soil. (sandy, dry, wet, clay, loam. ect...)

Maybe a chance for Course Concrete VP Tom to help us if needed. The right treatment and underlayment will make any soil issue go away.

To answer your question sir...I'll be VP Level/Final Placement guy again, you can be VP in charge of all Stake Issues and we will leave the Mr. Tamper Machine for the young-ins...that kinda kicked my arse last time at Spooky!

Dan  ::) 8) ::)

PS- We got some cool Park tools in the Clay County tool shed...must take inventory to see what all we got!  ;)

I'm gonna say I have... brown soil beneath my designed tee pads. I guess I'll need some help in that area, but I'm sure it exists out there (Bom Tutler for example), and you seem pretty knowledgeable Mr. Dan.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on January 30, 2010, 04:37:21 PM
Cooper's designs all turned in...VERY NICE WORK SIR!!

You can tell Coop walked the land...several times.

Thank you much!!!

I am very impressed with the quality and completeness of your design package!

Dan  8)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: coops on January 31, 2010, 10:57:03 AM
Thanks Dan,
I did indeed do a lot of work on that. Glad you liked it and thanks for all the work you've done setting up this opportunity for everyone.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on February 01, 2010, 08:36:40 PM
Thanks Dan,
I did indeed do a lot of work on that. Glad you liked it and thanks for all the work you've done setting up this opportunity for everyone.


My pleasure sir!

Dan
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on February 01, 2010, 08:45:03 PM
OK so Mr. Dick Parker has all his stuff turned in...and I must say the same thing-

Very well thought out and complete sir!

Dick too has spent alot of time on this project, in the park, on the computer and it shows in his design proposal. Thank Dick...you ROCK sir!

The Park Board and myself have a tough task ahead of us...deciding who used the land the best, made the safest, most fun course possible.

Stay tuned right here Ladies & Gents...more info to come!

Dan  8)

Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: MOSPARKY on February 03, 2010, 11:19:17 AM
Good luck to all course designers.  Remember one thing, cheaper is not better.  Let me remind you that there are course designers out there that are charging more money than you.  I think we are blessed to have our own course designers.  A 54 hole course is not going to be squashed by the price of baskets.  I hope the Titans get a chance since they are made in Missouri.  I know the two designers on this forum are from Kansas, so maybe they can think about it.  Just wondering what it would cost to get a pro designer and have you already done this?  How many bids do we have for the design?
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: coops on February 03, 2010, 11:32:56 AM
Pro designers (as a rough estimate) are about $5,400 per 18 holes (excluding the cost to get them here if they don't live in the area).

And about the Titans, I haven't recommended them but that is solely because I have never played on them. I'm sure they're fine but without firsthand knowledge I wasn't about to suggest that the parks dept buy 57 of them.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: MOSPARKY on February 03, 2010, 02:28:43 PM
Maybe it would be a good idea to get a pro course designer to look at the course.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on February 04, 2010, 06:14:36 AM
Maybe it would be a good idea to get a pro course designer to look at the course.

Can't release the details just yet but I know you will see some very fine stuff here ladies and gents. And remember, we will do several shakedown runs before anything gets set in crete.

We also have a couple of top of the list pro players who have agreed to be on my Advisorial Board and they like what they see...ALOT!

At the start of this project, I had over 10 people who expressed interest in the project. Then as the project details came into the situation and the design guidelines were written, the list dwindled down to 2 people who took the request very seriously. These 2 designers took all the comments on the form into consideration, talked to hundreds of people, scoured hundreds of websites and spend hundreds of hours doing what they did.

With all the homework, the walking of the land, the understanding of the guidelines and all the 1,000 other things these guys researched, I'd say we did have professionals design this complex...Homegrown Professionals.


Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: MOSPARKY on February 04, 2010, 07:06:50 AM
k
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Tom on February 04, 2010, 07:21:30 AM
I'd have to say I think Cooper and Dick's layouts are going to be real good, and if they aren't we can all make fun of their designs, and talk about how dumb this hole is or that hole is, and throw dog poop on them, and never offer them beer, and kick em in the nads.

 
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: MOSPARKY on February 04, 2010, 07:25:40 AM
watch out Tom, somebody might take you seriously.  Let's lift each other up.  Peace. AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Tom on February 04, 2010, 07:32:50 AM
I am being serious. I think both Coop and Dick have the ability to do a really good job at this sir. I can't wait to go to Smithville for some dg at the lake!
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: coops on February 04, 2010, 08:50:54 AM
I'd have to say I think Cooper and Dick's layouts are going to be real good, and if they aren't we can all make fun of their designs, and talk about how dumb this hole is or that hole is, and throw dog poop on them, and never offer them beer, and kick em in the nads.

 

Oh noes Tom! Don't do that! :D
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Cade on February 04, 2010, 04:15:27 PM
Dog poop... awesome.    ;)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: MOSPARKY on February 04, 2010, 04:37:05 PM
I hope whoever wins is compensated for their hard work.  If a pro gets 6 grand per 18 holes.  Three courses, countless hours walking the grounds, all the aspects taken into consideration. 
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on February 20, 2010, 09:13:18 AM
Heading out to take inventory of the dock sections/walkways that will be used for the needed bridges.

I am told they are very nice and will make excellent bridges where needed.

Photos & measurements to come.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on February 20, 2010, 06:24:13 PM
Bridges...we dont need no stinking bridges!

Uppp, hold on...YES WE DO!

And I think I just found me some!!!

(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/IMG_0358.jpg)
A real nice 20' x 4' (needs wood decking or concrete panels)
(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/IMG_0359.jpg)

(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/IMG_0360.jpg)

(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/IMG_0362.jpg)
A reeeeeaaaal long 51.5" x 425" bridge! (That's over 35 feet long!!!)

(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/IMG_0363.jpg)

(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/IMG_0365.jpg)

(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/IMG_0366.jpg)

(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/IMG_0368.jpg)
A 4' x 16' with hand rails!
(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/IMG_0369.jpg)

(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/IMG_0370.jpg)

He said we would "talk about the possibility" of getting these. They seemed to think that culverts were an option too!

Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on February 21, 2010, 12:46:01 AM
Did someone say concrete panels for top of bridges?

Think I found me some...

(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/IMG_0375.jpg)
12" x 48"s

(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/IMG_0378.jpg)
24" x 24"s
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on February 21, 2010, 02:52:42 PM
Seems the concrete treads were glued to the walkways...makes for super easy installation.

If we use this stuff, wonder if we utilize the floats on bottom and make it a raising bridge or bolt them to concrete piers?

Thoughts anyone?

Dan  ???
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on April 06, 2010, 01:43:25 PM
Or, Dick's suggestion from a while back- 10 foot diameter circles.  :)

Little birdie told me you're gonna see some 10 foot diameter circles...on one of the courses anyway!
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on April 17, 2010, 04:29:50 PM
#17 is not sooooo scary anymore and the new #18 is AMAZING!

And oh yea, before I forget...28.5 foot behind the basket is ALL WATER! (and sailboats & ducks too!)

(http://www.danweinert.com/downloads/Woorhenge_18-lg.jpg)

Dan  ;)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on April 17, 2010, 04:32:02 PM
...and the #9 hole is pretty sweet too!

(http://www.DanWeinert.com/downloads/Woorhenge_9-lg.jpg)

Dan  8)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on April 17, 2010, 04:47:44 PM
Before I forget...Keizer was a NO SHOW!  ;D
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: hyzerponix on April 17, 2010, 07:18:34 PM
Haha, thanks for inviting me but I overslept and didn't want to feel tardy or anything.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on April 17, 2010, 07:47:26 PM
Haha, thanks for inviting me but I overslept and didn't want to feel tardy or anything.

That's OK...we did miss you though!

Just don't whine again about not being invited sir!

Dan  :o ::) :o
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: bensdadfred on April 18, 2010, 07:40:11 AM
Yeah Mike, You could have seen the eagle land on what I think was #9.. It was Beauuuuuutiful!!  ;D and no, not an actual raptor..
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: hyzerponix on April 18, 2010, 08:52:43 AM
When I get on a different shift I'll be able to attend these types of functions. I see my basket made it out there, at least! ;D
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Seansponsoredam on May 13, 2010, 07:57:44 AM
Back to the Course Designer thread.  Do we have a winner and are they getting compensated as a proffesional course designer or are they scabbing it in.  I think with all the hard work they did according to this thread, they should deserve some monetary compensation.  I think Cooper had posted what a course designer usually gets. 

How are the plans coming along Dan?
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on May 13, 2010, 09:57:17 AM
Quote
How are the plans coming along Dan?

The "ALMOST THERE MEETING" got called off last night due to weather concerns. This was the next to last meeting with the Clay County Park Board. We are waiting for a makeup date and we hope that will be soon. The laptop is loaded with all the goodies and we are 120% ready to give that presentation.

The "FINAL MEETING" will be in front of the elected Clay County Officials at the Courthouse.

Staying mum on the rest of the deal until we get the final apporvals. (but yes, the winning designers will be compensated)

Thanks for your interest in the process...it's been a long ride and I am happy to report that everyone apprears to be onboard and now it's just a matter of a couple crucial approval steps.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Schoen-hopper on May 13, 2010, 11:06:14 AM
Well answered.

I don't think you can say there is a fee that a course designer "usually" gets.  They all get paid differently and different by the job.  Highly reputed designers sometimes earn a semi-respectable wage for their efforts.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Seansponsoredam on May 13, 2010, 11:40:49 AM
For sure, just think that the two guys that put there designs in put alot of time and thought into these courses.  Probably more than most course designers since they are local designers and don't have a time crunch.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on May 13, 2010, 11:50:50 AM
For sure, just think that the two guys that put there designs in put alot of time and thought into these courses.  Probably more than most course designers since they are local designers and don't have a time crunch.

I can tell you both of the final designers worked their butts off on this project. I live about 5 minutes from the Complex and both these guys live right at about an hour away and they still were out there more then I was in the initial stages of the project.

If I had to guess, I'd say that they both have well over 100 hours invested!

Stay tuned...getting closer to pulling the trigger on the deal.

We will have some volunteer days coming up real soon...just dealing with some stuff that's already down. (trees & branches)

We always sneak in a round or two afterwards!!
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: jack on May 13, 2010, 01:05:57 PM
For sure, just think that the two guys that put there designs in put alot of time and thought into these courses.  Probably more than most course designers since they are local designers and don't have a time crunch.

I doubt it.....having spent countless hours of time to prep for the courses, get the funding approved, make it happen, its really about how bad you want to have a course to play, and not about the money in our sport at this point......but then you are listening to a person that has raised over $500,000 for disc golf in Kansas City with no payment to date for any of the work that has been done out of that....but please enjoy the work that I do to help you enjoy the sport, thats satisfaction enough on many levels!

You want to get paid for it, it needs to be discussed and approved before hand not after the fact.  You either say I want xx$$, or I won't do it, and you don't.....or you do it and be happy that you have your name attached to something that you feel good about.....
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Seansponsoredam on May 13, 2010, 04:17:35 PM
Thanks Jack for all of your countless hours of volunteering, just thought that I would inject my two cents.   I'm still not voting for you!!  Unless you pay for my pdga membership.  I will make that stipulation up front!!  Just kidding, seriously you and many others make it possible for guys like me to play at wonderful courses around this town.  Thank you, to all that volunteer and who those who continue to give back to this sport that I enjoy so much.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: jack on May 13, 2010, 04:27:20 PM
Thanks Sean, not really looking for a shameless plug, but the fact remains that the idea of paying disc golf designers is still a battle that is fought daily.

This year alone, I have lost 4 bids, because I said pay me......I gave them a free prelim work, which is ok, and I will add it to my list of places that I helped, but I still get nothing for the time.... :-[  just makes me 8) though.... ;D
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on May 13, 2010, 08:47:50 PM
I got to chime in here...

Two guys completed the rigorous Guidelines to the fullest. (Dick Parker & Cooper Arnold)

Both will be compensated above their expectations...cause that's how I roll.

Just waiting for the final ok-dokey gents!
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: hyzerponix on May 13, 2010, 08:50:28 PM
Even if they don't get "paid" for this project, if the course turns out the way we all hope it will this will be a great item for both their resumes. That can go a long way.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Kevin Simpson on May 13, 2010, 11:03:10 PM
Jack, I'm not sure where all that latent bitterness just spewed forth from, but as Dan has said several times now, the designers ARE going to be paid. Money. Does it suck that you've never been paid to design anything? I guess. But that doesn't have anything to do with the current situation, in which compensation was stipulated and will be made.

I guess that whole rant was just to say, yes we should sacrifice for the sport, but no, that doesn't mean no one can be paid for professional work.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: twoDornottwoD on May 13, 2010, 11:20:31 PM
He didnt sound bitter to me.  Sounded more like he was suggesting Cooper and Dick should be counting their blessings if/when they are compensated.  While I dont doubt that Dan has plans to compensate them well for their hard work, this is neither a trend setting move or the norm.   And, it wont be for a while, especially in this economy.  I'm sure that the rewards and good karma for all their hard work have already paid more dividends to these four guys (Cooper, Dan, Dick, and Jack) than any monetary value they shall receive.  The love for the sport/game/outdoors/community is why they do it.  Believe me, there are a lot easier ways to make money than trying to make it off of disc golf, whether it be competition, sales, or course design.  Keep up the good work guys.  Though the days may come when it seems that way, your hard work does not go unnoticed.  :)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Kevin Simpson on May 14, 2010, 07:32:17 AM
Ugh. Making me sound like a stone-hearted capitalist.  :) I know they aren't in it for the money. I was just annoyed at how dogmatic Jack was about this specific situation. Dan may be acting out of the norm, but he spelled out what would happen, and it's happening.

I dispute your claim that it can't be trend-setting. Why shouldn't a parks department consider the design fee a cost along with baskets and pads?
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Schoen-hopper on May 14, 2010, 08:22:44 AM
Why shouldn't they indeed.  But in some places of the world those parks that "allow" disc golf into the parks will not pay a dime for equipment or anything else.  Fundraising is left up to a local club.  It's good to see this is changing.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Kevin Montgomery on May 14, 2010, 08:24:01 AM
(http://www.amiright.com/album-covers/images/album-The-Mothers-of-Invention-Were-Only-in-It-for-the-Money.jpg)
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: phisherman_77 on May 14, 2010, 09:19:47 AM
Ugh. Making me sound like a stone-hearted capitalist.  :) I know they aren't in it for the money. I was just annoyed at how dogmatic Jack was about this specific situation. Dan may be acting out of the norm, but he spelled out what would happen, and it's happening.

I dispute your claim that it can't be trend-setting. Why shouldn't a parks department consider the design fee a cost along with baskets and pads?

you should just stop posting kevin.  you're far too articulate and logical for this forum buddy.  ;D
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: GOT D??? do u on May 14, 2010, 10:08:02 AM
I dont think the KC PARKS DEPARTMENT could AFFORD to pay you Jack for all the YEARS u have invested at CLIFF DRIVE with all the changes that have been made before the FINAL LAYOUT was SET & pads poured...

I have heard GREAT things about CLIFF DRIVE since it has been FINALIZED...  ;D  still havent made it out there yet though, hard to make it that far NORTH when i get to play but with summer approaching it will get played soon  ;D
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: jack on May 14, 2010, 10:32:44 AM
Ugh. Making me sound like a stone-hearted capitalist.  :) I know they aren't in it for the money. I was just annoyed at how dogmatic Jack was about this specific situation. Dan may be acting out of the norm, but he spelled out what would happen, and it's happening.

I dispute your claim that it can't be trend-setting. Why shouldn't a parks department consider the design fee a cost along with baskets and pads?


Not true though, what happens if the city decides that they don't want the course, then who will pay these guys for the work?

I am not bitter in anyway if I were, I would have stopped doing this a long time ago.  The bottom line though is that nothing is certain in any world, but it does not mean that it will never happen.

A great case in point is Lees Summit, we had meetings with them in 1999 to do design work and create a course gave them outlines, plans etc, with proposals to get paid to do the work and ensure a success, yet it didn't happen, fast forward to 2006 and then they have an idea for a course, with their own design, and feel confident that it will work.....only it didn't, and the location changed, and other issues arose....

I am just saying that there is not any way possible to guarantee that they will be compensated unless Dan agrees to pay them directly.

At this point, there is not a check in hand with regards to the course to pay anyone, and until such time, good meanings and all, there is no money so its a work of love.

You also need to realize that while I may do most of my work for the love of the sport, its because of that love that we have many new courses in the area.

Not only do I design courses and build up the sport, but I also have given more presentations to people about disc golf in the local area than anyone else has over the last decade.  So do you pay professional presenters in our sport as well to deliver our message? ;D  Without my ability to get in front of many different groups and people this passion would not have been relayed, and the word of mouth that happens within all politics would not be there.  This is a direct reflection even in Smithville, where I know that I met with a group of dedicated business leaders in 2003 and talked with them about it as a guest speaker in a breakfast meeting, this also lead to the course in Parkville.....

I am not complaining about anything, I am trying to put a true reality spin on a project that has not been funded, has not been approved, and has not started......I wonder how many people in our forum are truly aware of how many disc golf projects are sitting in their city's files that are not being moved for one reason or another.....I can count in my head initially of 9 within a 30 mile radius of downtown.....

I try to not talk about things that may come to happen in our discussion groups, I try to talk about what is a reality and happening now.

This project appears to be moving forward and that is great, love the enthusiasm, love the energy, but the realist in me knows that if they approve one course you should count your blessings and lets start with that before you put the horse in front of the cart.....
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: twoDornottwoD on May 14, 2010, 11:03:00 AM
I dispute your claim that it can't be trend-setting. Why shouldn't a parks department consider the design fee a cost along with baskets and pads?

I didnt say it cant.  I said it wont be for a while.  Parks depts should include a design fee in the budget and a lot of times they do.  Unfortunately, extra costs sometimes come up and the designer fees seem to go by the wayside to stay within the budget.  Same thing happens to TD's of PDGA events getting paid.  Cooper and Dick should feel very gracious that Dan is trying to make sure that their getting paid is a staple in the budget.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Kevin Simpson on May 14, 2010, 12:58:51 PM
Ok. You guys win. My child-like innocence has been shattered, and Jack is the most qualified candidate for Director of the PDGA.

In all seriousness, though, I'm just as grateful as anyone for all the work that's come before to make this city such a great place to golf in, and I retain cautious optimism that those efforts can be expanded and enriched.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: jack on May 14, 2010, 01:16:43 PM
Ok. You guys win. My child-like innocence has been shattered, and Jack is the most qualified candidate for Director of the PDGA.

In all seriousness, though, I'm just as grateful as anyone for all the work that's come before to make this city such a great place to golf in, and I retain cautious optimism that those efforts can be expanded and enriched.

It doesn't pay enough, I was asked if I was interested in it when it was open, and the move to Northen Georgia made no sense to me.....

Over time it should get to the point that people will understand the standards and need to have that qualified individual to design, implement, and construct a course.

Currently in Kansas City there are 2 certified disc golf designers, myself and John Theiss.....(John got certified this year, I was certified in 2004)

Its a small sport where everyone thinks that they can design a course without thinking all options/pitfalls through.  Every project lends new insight into what can and can't be done on a property, and having a skillset and knowledge base of that information can help expedite and minimize errors on a design/build.....it also takes trust in the person that you work with on both sides of the fence, those that want it in, and those that control the land.....

Its a tough racket, but then thats why there are less than 10 that do this on a FT basis as their sole income, and even those 10 have other income streams to support the ventures....its not a profession yet, but over time it may become one, just doubt it will be my lifetime.....
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Tom on May 14, 2010, 02:30:13 PM
I get paid to design stuff. Been gettin paid to design stuff since 1981. Sometimes I get paid to go watch the stuff I designed get built. Some times there are Disc Golf courses nearby so I take my discs and play while I'm there. It's a tough life.  :D

How does one become a "certified" course designer? Who provides the certification? Is it like a Professional Engineers license, governed by the State?  ;D
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Timko on May 14, 2010, 02:36:45 PM
I get paid to design stuff. Been gettin paid to design stuff since 1981. Sometimes I get paid to go watch the stuff I designed get built.

Designing stuff right now.  I'm building it too.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: phisherman_77 on May 14, 2010, 02:40:50 PM
I get paid to design stuff. Been gettin paid to design stuff since 1981. Sometimes I get paid to go watch the stuff I designed get built.

Designing stuff right now.  I'm building it too.

Me too.  And I get paid for it.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: hyzerponix on May 14, 2010, 07:40:34 PM
Everybody's a designer these days... ::)

You all should hear yourselves... :D
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: coops on May 16, 2010, 12:57:21 PM
I get paid to design stuff. Been gettin paid to design stuff since 1981. Sometimes I get paid to go watch the stuff I designed get built. Some times there are Disc Golf courses nearby so I take my discs and play while I'm there. It's a tough life.  :D

How does one become a "certified" course designer? Who provides the certification? Is it like a Professional Engineers license, governed by the State?  ;D

http://www.discgolfcoursedesigners.org/discgolfwiki/index.php5?title=Main_Page

It's on there.
Title: Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers
Post by: Dan Weinert on October 08, 2011, 09:46:09 AM
I'd have to say I think Cooper and Dick's layouts are going to be real good, and if they aren't we can all make fun of their designs, and talk about how dumb this hole is or that hole is, and throw dog poop on them, and never offer them beer, and kick em in the nads.

Reading this again, 18 months later...this is some funny sh!t here boys and girls.

Come play Beaver and laugh at Dick!!

DcW  8)