KCFDC Forum

KCFDC Courses => Water Works => Topic started by: tedkeith on September 09, 2011, 09:02:48 AM

Title: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: tedkeith on September 09, 2011, 09:02:48 AM
32 for a late season round on a perfect evening at lovely Water Works. Mid 70's with breezes under 10.

Matt Eklund threw the drive of the day when he aced 18 Short with a purple 170 CH Valkyrie. Ace #3 for Mr. Eklund. The Ace Pool was $501 so Matt should get $230 after club dues.

Bobby took Open with a 51. Billy and Ken Hostetler split Masters shooting 52. TanK moved up to Pro2 and came in at 47. Mando led the ladies with a 61.

A couple of regulars came in with season best rounds. Jason Lyon (22 weeks) and Doug Kantro (19 weeks) both shot 53.

Updated season averages here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhgXRqju9ChpdEI0Xzk1UHJiRzFqdUhYVU1SazM5VlE&hl=en_US#gid=0

Next week start time 5:30.



Open (4)

Bobby Villarreal  51
Fred Smith  53
Caleb Walker  55
Mark Stiles  59

Women (2)

Amanda Jackson  61
Tracy  88

Masters (eight)

Ken Hostetler  52
Billy Nelson  52
Doug Kantro  53
Ted Keith  54
Bill Neenan  58
Mark Mills  59
Eric Garberg  59
Rick Rothstein  62
Steve Glover  68

Pro2 (18)

Ken Franks  47
Jason Lyon  53
Matt Eklund  54
Fred Fortson  54
Kevin Smith  55
James Farmer  55
John Thompson  55
Shane Caylor  55
Greg Utz  57
Frank Weaver  57
Mike Keizer  59
Ben Taylor  59
Jason Pool  59
Chris Millsap  62
David Franklin  66
Jack Golden  67
Bret Long  68
Lil John  70

Ace Pool = $250
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: HaterAde on September 09, 2011, 09:30:34 AM
TanK moved up to Pro2 and came in at 47.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for anyone who is generally the best disc golfer in town, who wins league (Pro 1 division) on a regular basis, and who'll sandbag down to Pro 2 over some chump change. Unbelievable...
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: tedkeith on September 09, 2011, 09:48:24 AM
He would have won $1 less had he played Open. I really don't think it was about the money. In my eyes it's just more proof that the Pro2 experiment has been an epic fail.
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: will on September 09, 2011, 09:58:20 AM
He would have won $1 less had he played Open. I really don't think it was about the money. In my eyes it's just more proof that the Pro2 experiment has been an epic fail.

stole mr lyon's thunder
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: jamidanger on September 09, 2011, 10:09:54 AM
i was told at a league i wasn't allowed to play pro2<there was no masters div> and had to two-buck up in order to play, just saying sir.
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: HaterAde on September 09, 2011, 10:12:42 AM
He would have won $1 less had he played Open. I really don't think it was about the money...

Yeah, but he's still obligated to receive some sh!t over it... ;D
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: sirbronco on September 09, 2011, 10:16:22 AM
He would have won $1 less had he played Open. I really don't think it was about the money. In my eyes it's just more proof that the Pro2 experiment has been an epic fail.

After running league for this summer, I am pretty sure that I have to agree with Ted!  I really dont like the Open 2 division.
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: Bill on September 09, 2011, 10:17:54 AM
It had nothing to do with Money!Do away with Pro 2
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: tallguy007kc on September 09, 2011, 10:22:35 AM
On a lighter side, let us not forget.......Nice Ace Mr. Eklund!  8)
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: Utz on September 09, 2011, 10:26:42 AM
I've never seen Lil' Eklund jump so high after taht ace on 18, hahaha! we celebrated to the maximum.

Oh Matt....Since you hit a sweet sweet ace pot, go ahead and get some dank beers for us next week bud, :D

Here's what I'm going to do.... I'm going to get all my Pro2 buddies together, and one week we're all going to enter into Pro1. My hopes are that all the Pro1 boys are playing Pro2, and we'll swap and be deviously happy :)

Until that alternate universe comes about...Why dont we just hide the sign up sheet from people who are signing up? That-a-way there's no sandbagging cause one division is bigger than another.

Or or or! I'll just start playing Am's at league and put the heat on the coordinator to bring funny munny. Buy new plastic, turn around and sell it.

Either way, this new league format crashed :(
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: Tom on September 09, 2011, 10:28:36 AM
All one division for $3...$1 to da club, $1 to payout, and $1 to da ACE fund. Side bet if you wanna win more.

Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: bensdadfred on September 09, 2011, 10:37:11 AM
So he WAS in the ace pool? Word was that he wasn't..
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: Ash on September 09, 2011, 06:24:23 PM
All one division for $3...$1 to da club, $1 to payout, and $1 to da ACE fund. Side bet if you wanna win more.

How is that any better? I know I would not be the only person who would stop playing leagues if it went to this. Everyone should have a chance to compete with others at their skill level and not with those that are at a much higher skill level.

I can see that there is a problem with the pro2 division. Which we all know is essentially just the division for am players to play for cash. But this brings up a good question, how come it is ok for people in age protected divisions to play for cash but not us ams? Because in all reality probably a majority of the old guys playing those age protected divisions are by no means pro players.

Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: Tom on September 10, 2011, 09:03:43 AM
All one division for $3...$1 to da club, $1 to payout, and $1 to da ACE fund. Side bet if you wanna win more.

How is that any better? I know I would not be the only person who would stop playing leagues if it went to this. Everyone should have a chance to compete with others at their skill level and not with those that are at a much higher skill level.

I can see that there is a problem with the pro2 division. Which we all know is essentially just the division for am players to play for cash. But this brings up a good question, how come it is ok for people in age protected divisions to play for cash but not us ams? Because in all reality probably a majority of the old guys playing those age protected divisions are by no means pro players.

It's better because it;s not a lot of $ and the ams could maybe be on a card with players that can teach em something.

It's OK for ams to play for cash. They just have to be skilled enough to beat any pro or master that decides to play against them.  ;D   
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: HaterAde on September 10, 2011, 09:56:33 AM
It's OK for ams to play for cash. They just have to be skilled enough to beat any pro or master that decides to play against them.  ;D

Yep, which was also possible under the old, unbroken system. I used to "donate" and play Open quite often, just so I could get on a card with someone who I could learn from by watching them throw and putt. Not sure if I ever retained any of it, but still... ;D
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: twoDornottwoD on September 12, 2011, 11:41:13 AM
It had nothing to do with Money!Do away with Pro 2

if its not about the money, do away with pro1. 
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: dickthediscparker on September 12, 2011, 12:12:02 PM
It has always been and will always be about the money.  But I am suggesting pro $5.00 with an optional $2 sidebet
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: coops on September 12, 2011, 01:01:08 PM
What about everyone in one division: $28 to payout, $1 to ace fund, and $1 to club with an optional $2 sidebet.
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: ekolk on September 12, 2011, 01:48:32 PM
Ash wrote:
"I can see that there is a problem with the pro2 division. Which we all know is essentially just the division for am players to play for cash. But this brings up a good question, how come it is ok for people in age protected divisions to play for cash but not us ams? Because in all reality probably a majority of the old guys playing those age protected divisions are by no means pro players."

And I agree one hundred percent! I do not want funny money! I don't want to sell my merchandise for cash. I want cash!
Response from pro players: Well then move up! Why Masters players don't have to move up. They just need to age. Mind you, I have started playing open in leagues. Now, on the flip side, tourneys are looking worse than ever for AMs: trophy only?!

So, pro 2 brought me out to league all summer. Otherwise, I would not have gone to play for KC cash. Pro 2 offered better competition than AM as well. There are so many players that don't throw 1000 rated rounds week after week, but don't throw 900 rated rounds either.

Pros: Why would I donate just to play up, if I have no chance of winning? (just giving the opposing view.)
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: tedkeith on September 12, 2011, 08:25:04 PM
But this brings up a good question, how come it is ok for people in age protected divisions to play for cash but not us ams? Because in all reality probably a majority of the old guys playing those age protected divisions are by no means pro players.

I resemble that remark. It really is a good point Ash. It probably should be one division or all playing for cash. Personally I wouldn't have a problem with it if Masters played for KC Kash too. Shooot, as often as I win I would just keep it and frame it.
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: GuinnessSmurf on September 12, 2011, 09:05:49 PM
I'd be fine to play for a bounty of Ted's delicious cookies.       
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: Bill on September 13, 2011, 07:54:51 AM
But this brings up a good question, how come it is ok for people in age protected divisions to play for cash but not us ams? Because in all reality probably a majority of the old guys playing those age protected divisions are by no means pro players.

I resemble that remark. It really is a good point Ash. It probably should be one division or all playing for cash. Personally I wouldn't have a problem with it if Masters played for KC Kash too. Shooot, as often as I win I would just keep it and frame it.

They do that because they choose to play a pro div,Masters.You can also choose to play a pro div,Open.Ams do not get cash.
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: dickthediscparker on September 13, 2011, 01:01:39 PM
In reality Mark Stiles , Pete Cashen , Ben Hansen , Mike Thomas , and others are Pro Masters who do play Pro Masters.  Other old guys have to just play against them.  And it usually is the same guys winning over an over.  We actually can offer an Am Masters division but we don't because those am masters would rather just play with pro masters.  The ams don't want to play for $2 extra bucks.  That was what caused this pro2 division to be created.   Before that change took place we never had a complaint from ams about the league structure. 
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: ekolk on September 13, 2011, 02:53:19 PM
Dick:

"Before that change took place we never had a complaint from ams about the league structure."

Well, I can say that I never complained because I stopped playing league under that structure. Food for thought. This summer I played at least two leagues a week, giving two bucks a week to the club. As an Am, I would not go back to playing for KC Cash. I would play pro now, but six months ago, no way. What changed? I played alot this summer and got better.

I wonder how many come to league for the money? Competition? Or just camaraderie?
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: dickthediscparker on September 13, 2011, 03:10:57 PM
When Pro or Open was only $5 there was no complaint.  Until it went to $7.  But you are just one person who has been around for some time and became jaded to the KC Kash. What about new people.  What about growth. This structure does not promote growth.   
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: dickthediscparker on September 13, 2011, 03:18:57 PM
So basically all the ams want to play for $5 but they don't want Tank - Arturo - Bobby - Shannan and maybe 2 other people to play with them.  They should be separate.  I mean because these guys are at every league every week keeping it alive .  All I'm saying is that we go back to a $5 open division and we all are happy.  Unless the previous statement is true.
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: tallguy007kc on September 13, 2011, 03:51:27 PM
So basically all the ams want to play for $5 but they don't want Tank - Arturo - Bobby - Shannan and maybe 2 other people to play with them.  They should be separate.  I mean because these guys are at every league every week keeping it alive .  All I'm saying is that we go back to a $5 open division and we all are happy.  Unless the previous statement is true.

I'm cool with this personally. On a slightly different note however, I've read most of the arguments from everyone on here, and besides the paying a couple more dollars for the Open currently, it seems that the ones complaining the most are more interested in playing for, lets face it, the equivalent of two, maybe three Happy Meals at most for just about any given league night, sans one or two.  It just seems to me that no one is really interested in improving their game so much as making some "change" for the evening, when you DO get the opportunity to play against folks like a Tank - Arturo - Bobby, and so on.....seems to me you'd want to pick up a few pointers here and there, and try to work it into your game eventually, AND GET BETTER.  Seems like a pretty good deal for $5 bucks to me.....just my 2 cents......carry on   8) :o 8)

giggity...
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: jack on September 13, 2011, 05:44:39 PM
People seem to play league to have the opportunity to compete and possibly win something, whether it be real or funny money. If you want to learn or "get pointers" then maybe we should start, as a club to get some of these better local "pro's" to offer clinics or lesson's in a class setting?
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: tallguy007kc on September 14, 2011, 10:19:25 AM
I guess I'm needing to "re-structure" my wording a bit.  Granted an occasional "clinic" would be a cool thing, and I believe there is one that happens, at least on occasion, on the Tues. night "beginners" league.  I wouldn't mind attending that at some point myself. 

After re-reading what I wrote previously, I don't think I worded that as well as I could have.  People, as a whole, want to compete for cash or funny money, myself included, and I get that.  I also feel that we need to "tweek" the league format to something we can all agree on, be happy, and have it structured in a way that there is continued growth.  With that said, what I was trying to say before, (and probably not very well...), is that I was noticing a lot of comments leading me to believe that there was much more concern over the fact of whether they would have a snow balls chance of ever winning, which is fine.  All I was meaning in my statement before is that, people just need to chill, and quit stressing over whether so-and-so is playing in such-and-such division.  Just compete and have fun!  H$ll....if I stressed about that with my game , I'd of had a stroke 8 months ago, and I'd have been buried with a red a$$ from all the whoopin's I've received....  ;)  :o  8)

I also meant no disrespect to anyone in the previous "message", and hope no offense was taken by it, as that was not my intent.  8) 

giggity.....
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: HaterAde on September 14, 2011, 10:58:17 AM
I wonder how many come to league for the money? Competition? Or just camaraderie?

I go to league for the camaraderie only, and have never understood those who place importance on winning money or on "What's in it for me?"

Seriously, I don't know how broke or petty one would have to be to place such importance on the chump change that comes with winning league. Even if the same person won Open every day at every league, they wouldn't even be making a McDonald's paycheck.

That's why I don't mind KC Cash. I'm not expecting anything financially out of league anyway, so the KC Cash is a welcomed bonus as far as I'm concerned.
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: coops on September 14, 2011, 11:47:21 AM
I have an always will play Open in leagues primarily for the competition and people you get to play with.

That being said, keeping the division big allows for a couple things: larger payouts, more competition, and it forces those up-and-comers to decide if they want to face the crucible that is Open or be happy with the Am divisions.

And, in defense of those who are out to make a buck or two, it isn't always about the amount of money made but the ability to offset costs invoked from league attendance. Club dues, league buy-in, plastic purchases, and probably the biggest expense for a lot of people who have to drive 20-60 minutes to get to league, gas.
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: twoDornottwoD on September 14, 2011, 12:11:13 PM
don't forget shoes.  seems i go through at least 3 pairs a year.
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: gleauzinier on September 14, 2011, 12:43:54 PM
In reality Mark Stiles , Pete Cashen , Ben Hansen , Mike Thomas , and others are Pro Masters who do play Pro Masters.  Other old guys have to just play against them. 
actually all four of the guys mentioned usually play open at league. stiles especially makes a point to play against the best competition no matter whose card he plays on.
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: HaterAde on September 14, 2011, 12:57:39 PM


And, in defense of those who are out to make a buck or two, it isn't always about the amount of money made but the ability to offset costs invoked from league attendance. Club dues, league buy-in, plastic purchases, and probably the biggest expense for a lot of people who have to drive 20-60 minutes to get to league, gas.

As a disc golfer, unless you only play one course that you walk to, you're going to incur all those costs anyway, with the exception of the league buy-in. Is that small "offset" truly a deciding factor as to whether or not to come play league for $5-$7? If so, again, I say that's awfully petty.
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: coops on September 14, 2011, 01:25:00 PM
I'm not saying it is a deciding factor, but it can definitely be a contributing factor.

And, even if it isn't one person's reason for coming, it may be another's, which increases attendance and consequently competition.

Obviously if you only care about making money at leagues you would be ace-running everything, but people don't do that. Where is there anything wrong with making a little extra money at leagues, even if it is not enough to impress the affluent Keizer. For those of us who are supporting a habit and attempting to at least make it cost-neutral every little bit helps, especially in a sport that has so little real cost.
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: HaterAde on September 14, 2011, 02:14:20 PM
Exactly, I'm content playing disc golf for funny money, then hopping into my luxury sled and driving home to my stately manor where I swim in a pool of gold coins like Scrooge McDuck. ;D
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: jamidanger on September 14, 2011, 05:21:07 PM
maybe we should play for each others vehicles at leagues?
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: kidmills on September 14, 2011, 05:30:51 PM
maybe we should play for each others vehicles at leagues?
who would want your jap-trap?
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: GuinnessSmurf on September 15, 2011, 07:46:47 AM
Exactly, I'm content playing disc golf for funny money, then hopping into my luxury sled and driving home to my stately manor where I swim in a pool of gold coins like Scrooge McDuck. ;D

HAHAHAhahaha...   I want to hang out at YOUR place!   I always wondered how he (Scrooge McDuck) was able to swim through those piles of gold coins.   I would think there would be a lot of resistance on the surface and bone crushing weight underneath.
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: tallguy007kc on September 15, 2011, 08:25:54 AM
It probably should be one division or all playing for cash.

That is the best idea I've heard yet.

$4 basic entry for everyone +$1 for ace fund +$1 if non-member

Divisions:

Open (cash payout) - one division

Am divisions (KCKash payout) - same offerings as any tourney (Adv, Int. age protected, etc.)

Me likey as well!  Feelin' froggy?....jump on up!  Not so much.....all good as well........giggity!  8)
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: Ken Franks on September 15, 2011, 08:38:23 AM
See you all in Pro 2 tonight!! Cause really, I just want to "SAVE" the money.
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: Utz on September 15, 2011, 01:05:28 PM
If thats the case I'm playin PrOpen :D

I hope Lil' Eklund shows up so I can hassle him for Ace Beer

Cya soon folks!
Title: Re: 9/8/11 Water Works Mini - Ace!!
Post by: jamison99 on September 20, 2011, 01:25:55 PM
There are no defined boundaries for Pro1 and Pro2, no ratings cut off or any other restriction.  How can you blame someone for playing where the money is. You say it isn't about money, then why don't we all play for free and just enjoy each others company?  There is a competitive factor in us that wants to play for something and that just happens to be cash.  I participated in a league a week ago that everyone had decided to play open, and the 1st place payout would have been $63...I make a very decent living, but if I am able to go out, enjoy the weather, have solid competitiion from TanK, Cooper, Arturo, Bobby, Stiles, etc to help push my game, AND bring home appx $20-25 an hr, why not.  So yes, Open players play in the OPEN division when it makes most sense to them.  Where is that wrong?