Author Topic: Impending Invasions by Outsiders?  (Read 7191 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

HaterAde

  • Guest
Re: Impending Invasions by Outsiders?
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2012, 12:46:21 PM »


I personally don't care what courses John J Jones expects to play when he comes to the KCWO.

Perhaps too many others here feel the same way you do, and perhaps the out-of-towners are picking up on y'alls' vibes.

When you go to a concert, you go to see the band or bands you want to see.

When you buy a car, you buy the car you want to buy.

You wouldn't like to just accept whatever the purveyor decided they wanted to give you.

The customer is always right.

Kevin Montgomery

  • Administrator
  • 1000 Rated Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 3060
  • Nice shot!
    • View Profile
    • http://kcfdc.org
Re: Impending Invasions by Outsiders?
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2012, 01:06:21 PM »


I personally don't care what courses John J Jones expects to play when he comes to the KCWO.

Perhaps too many others here feel the same way you do, and perhaps the out-of-towners are picking up on y'alls' vibes.

When you go to a concert, you go to see the band or bands you want to see.

When you buy a car, you buy the car you want to buy.

You wouldn't like to just accept whatever the purveyor decided they wanted to give you.

The customer is always right.

I think something that is absolutely essential here, whether using the logic of Loomis where we set the courses in perpetuity or rotate annually as Tracy suggested, is to make sure the courses we plan to use are announced publicly well in advance so those planning to come to town know what courses will be used. All too often we will wait until the last minute to let people know what courses will be in play and even then we sometimes make additional changes in the day or two before for whatever reason. If people know what to expect and what we announce actually happens they can decide if they want to come to town or not with some confidence that what was announced will indeed transpire. Given our recent history in this area I think we will have to earn the trust of the players before they will be confident that we will use the courses we say we will. I think my criticism in this regard mostly applies to the AM field last year though.

Personally, I feel that exposing the field to one new course each year would be fine. But we should always include Water Works no matter what. Pros should be able to at least be assured they will play our signature course each year.
Kevin Montgomery
Eschew Obfuscation
KCFDC #117
PDGA# 12037
http://www.kcfdc.org

jack

  • 1000 Rated Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 9823
    • View Profile
Re: Impending Invasions by Outsiders?
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2012, 02:48:19 PM »
Since its been in the ground (even before it was...) WW has been used at every Wide Open I believe.  I don't think that it is never not used.

Where was the other events that you mention 30 yrs ago?  Think about that as well.  KC has evolved, and as I sit, very few places come to mind that have seen the immediate growth of courses that we have here over the last decade.  We have gone from 4 locations (5 courses) to close to 30 within 35 miles of Downtown KC in the last 12 years.  Many of those growth patterns are from excitement created by the Wide Open, and people taking that home and making a change locally.

I don't think that we have waivered, or waited on course selections, but then maybe its my brain that knows what courses in advance and not always shared.

We have the courses pretty well secured with our plans right now, and they should come out soon.

Des Moines doesn't always use Pickard, they always use Walnut, and Ewing though......others vary.
===o  {>[]----
Jack Lowe-
Parks Development Director for KCFDC
Multiple PDGA Worlds TD
Course Designs
913.485.5123-C
"Disc Golf-
Like ball golf, only faster,
cheaper, and healthier!"

jack

  • 1000 Rated Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 9823
    • View Profile
Re: Impending Invasions by Outsiders?
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2012, 02:49:24 PM »
Our parks and our relationships with P&R preclude us from always using the same course.

I find Hambrick course rather boring personally, why I don't go there.....opinion, the other area courses are ok, but nothing that great in my mind, since it doesn't vary, I don't like to go.  I love Madison's courses though, and they varied them I used to go there, but then the time after the event, and closing ceremonies took forever to justify it.

the USDGC is an event that is Innova, and is paid for by Innova, its not fair nor should it be in the same breath as the Wide Open as its sole sponsor is a manufacturer.

The other fact is this.  We are not catering to the top 100 pros for the event.  How many of the top 100 pros, nay, the top 500 pros are helping to raise money for the Wide Open?  Are working with the P&R to make our local courses better?  Are helping at workdays to get mulch, string, OB's, weed whacking on the courses in time for the event?

The Wide Open is a club event that in turn we prepare our course for roughly 300 people every year that come beat them to death, and then leave.  What we get to enjoy as a community is better disc golf before and then after the event.  The Wide Open is a badge of honor for the club and the P&R, its not an event to give to those that don't give to the local scene.  We do it for love, and those that give the most love to the parks, and the event, are the ones that make the decisions on this event in particular.

I am not about to change my stance that the Wide Open in the best event in the land hands down for variety of courses, the only thing we miss in KC is as follows:
Oceans
Mountains
Water Shots

We have dang near everything else.  I personally didn't like DeLa enough to want to play it 3x to go make the trip, but with the new lake course being part of the Masters Cup, I am leaning that way.

I want to play new courses, and see new places to play.  That is my opinion, and I believe countless others.

We typically have a field of "open" players that is a 1/3 of the rest, the other 2/3 are helping to pay for the those that you call top pro's, and to me their voice is more important than those top pros being referenced.

FWIW, I have had quite a few conversations with lets say top 50 pro's, and most of them don't like Blue Valley as it stands.  This year they will have a chance to see a shorter BV, and then test their game with Blue Springs as well.  In the same day.  I like to see that like I liked to see WyCo and Down Under during the same event, makes all types of the game be used, it gives a full arsenal of shots for the players.

Initial ideas for the courses this year will include:
Blue Valley-Short
Blue Springs

Rosedale
Water Works

Swope Gold
===o  {>[]----
Jack Lowe-
Parks Development Director for KCFDC
Multiple PDGA Worlds TD
Course Designs
913.485.5123-C
"Disc Golf-
Like ball golf, only faster,
cheaper, and healthier!"

jack

  • 1000 Rated Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 9823
    • View Profile
Re: Impending Invasions by Outsiders?
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2012, 02:54:27 PM »
Tracy,

Don't let Jay dissuade you from going to Des Moines.  Jay has no idea of how we run our events, he was speculating at best with his keen eye for details.  Don't let one person irritate you for an en

I personally don't like playing the same course day-in-day out, infact while I played the USDGC, since I was at the crack of dawn we went in the afternoon and played other courses in the area.....

DeLa is fun, but Pinto is going to be more fun in the future, and the 2 of them combined will make me think more about traveling to the event now than it has in the past.....

===o  {>[]----
Jack Lowe-
Parks Development Director for KCFDC
Multiple PDGA Worlds TD
Course Designs
913.485.5123-C
"Disc Golf-
Like ball golf, only faster,
cheaper, and healthier!"

white mccoy

  • Pro Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 542
    • View Profile
Re: Impending Invasions by Outsiders?
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2012, 03:10:57 PM »
Initial ideas for the courses this year will include:
Blue Valley-Short
Blue Springs

Rosedale
Water Works

Swope Gold


I think that sounds like a great set-up...a couple newbies mixed in with some golden oldies.  I vote yes.

Rosedale needs to be maxed out though, can be such a good course in long positions.
Just Joe
West Side 4 Life!!!!

jack

  • 1000 Rated Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 9823
    • View Profile
Re: Impending Invasions by Outsiders?
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2012, 03:17:55 PM »
As of right now I think that the ADV and Pro Fields are all set with regards to the BV, BS, Rosie, WW, Swope.

The"B" Tier could see the use of the K-7 Corridor courses, Olathe, Shawnee Mission, WyCo. 
The B-Tier will be all amateur divisions not on the Adv side and they will play 3 rounds, 2 saturday and 1 Sunday.

Initially we are looking at
(A)Open Men and Women doing:
Fri-BS-BV
Sat-Rosie-WW
Sun-Swope

(B)Age protected ADV and Pro Div:
Fri-BV-BS
Sat-Swope-Rosie
Sun-WW

(C) Adv Men & Women
Fri-Swope-WW
Sat-BS-BV
Sun-Rosie

Now this is up for discussion still, but should have it planned within the week as we may go the K-7 Route instead of this, but if we go this way everyone plays on the same courses....

(D) Int or Int/Rec
Sat-BV-Swope
Sun-BS

(E) REC/Novice
Sat-WW-BS
Sun-BV

The above though may be limited to 90 players and only one field, if that is the case you would only see a (D) pool configuration.

There will be camping available at Swope this year as well in Lake of the Woods, we hope to be able to have over 100 people staying there.  We have the camping area reserved from May 25-June 4th.  More information to follow, but that place shold be hopping the entire time!!
===o  {>[]----
Jack Lowe-
Parks Development Director for KCFDC
Multiple PDGA Worlds TD
Course Designs
913.485.5123-C
"Disc Golf-
Like ball golf, only faster,
cheaper, and healthier!"

jack

  • 1000 Rated Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 9823
    • View Profile
Re: Impending Invasions by Outsiders?
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2012, 03:19:27 PM »
The Wide Open is a badge of honor for the club and the P&R,

Which is another reason to rotate in courses.  Give every one a chance to feel the pride of making their local course shine for the WO even if it's only every 3-5 years.  It's good for the courses and the volunteer base.

Entirely agree, and why while I have helped with the Wide Open we try to use those new courses where and when it works.  This year is a little tough as we are focusing  a lot of efforts for Swope to be a showcase event, from Thursday on to Sunday, if not the week before as well!
===o  {>[]----
Jack Lowe-
Parks Development Director for KCFDC
Multiple PDGA Worlds TD
Course Designs
913.485.5123-C
"Disc Golf-
Like ball golf, only faster,
cheaper, and healthier!"

Loomis

  • Guest
Re: Impending Invasions by Outsiders?
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2012, 03:39:21 PM »
Make sure you let everyone know that the Blue Valley settings are going to be half of what they are expecting it to be. That little tid bit of information is going to be important...


jack

  • 1000 Rated Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 9823
    • View Profile
Re: Impending Invasions by Outsiders?
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2012, 03:44:52 PM »
[
"showing off" which is mentioned so often, does nothing but backfire.
I think Kevin is right in this case.  Post exactly what will be played and stick to it. We were evening mucking with the schedule of '09 Worlds very late in the run up to the event. 
[

The Worlds is a different beast though.  You either plan on coming to the worlds with a pretty solid idea of the courses or you aren't coming.  Its no different than this year, infact this year in California the course that was at the lake wasn't set up until the DAY OF the event.  THe day off.....we had the same issues as Lee Summit was on the Fence, they didn't work well with us.  Lenexa was to have a new course, it didn't go it.  Down Under wasn't going to be used, it had to be......

The Worlds and the Wide Open are not the same thing, please don't confuse them.  Kansas City has hosted 3 worlds, making it the most used location in the history of the sport. 

People need to realize that our complaints to a point are valid, but in many other reasoning minds are completely worthless in the truly large scheme of things.

The fact that we can have this argument is also a strong indication that we have a great community that is passionate about the sport, the courses, and the desire to make it great here.

Please use that energy to help make the event great this year, that in turn will enable all of us to be proud of the event.  It is after all one of very few events to make it to 30 yrs.......think about it, in the last 30 yrs how many.......soccer teams....hockey teams.......local golf events.......running events......have maintained it?  For that matter even the Ice Bowl, this year is 25 yrs in KC.......we are an anchor in sports that we are looking beyond at times.

to quote Matthew Broderick, ala John Hughes.....

"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it."

so lets continue to have good conversations in here, which I feel we are, and thanks to everyone for remaining pretty diligent in their stance, yet understanding as well, and enjoy the game.

With days like today, you better get out and enjoy the sport as well if you can......meanwhile back at the office (in my best superfriends back to the legion sound)
===o  {>[]----
Jack Lowe-
Parks Development Director for KCFDC
Multiple PDGA Worlds TD
Course Designs
913.485.5123-C
"Disc Golf-
Like ball golf, only faster,
cheaper, and healthier!"

jack

  • 1000 Rated Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 9823
    • View Profile
Re: Impending Invasions by Outsiders?
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2012, 04:11:00 PM »
Make sure you let everyone know that the Blue Valley settings are going to be half of what they are expecting it to be. That little tid bit of information is going to be important...

It's not half, but about 7800' feet or 25% less not half, its still a tough course that people should enjoy thoroughly...

By the time they play Blue Valley in the shorter configuration, and Blue Springs, it will still be more golf than they got last year in terms of distance......

What do you think the concerns will be around this?

Though we will be heavily notating that this is a different layout at Blue Valley in our advertising efforts for certain.  The other thing to notate would be that this is the first time that Blue Valley will have another course listed on it at the same day......so most would have some insight into a change initially as well for those that think about these things.

Not all people are like me and just go to an event though....I showed up in Des Moines in October on a course that wasn't even used on the day that I came up.....went to Grandview and we were playing Pickard, then Ewing, had my partner follow me from Grandview to Pickard as I then thought it was 2-rounds in INdianola......but then I just go to play and have fun and meet and play with people I like.......

I get it, but I am curious as you seem to think that there will be fall-out, and I think that there will be more excitement.....
===o  {>[]----
Jack Lowe-
Parks Development Director for KCFDC
Multiple PDGA Worlds TD
Course Designs
913.485.5123-C
"Disc Golf-
Like ball golf, only faster,
cheaper, and healthier!"

jack

  • 1000 Rated Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 9823
    • View Profile
Re: Impending Invasions by Outsiders?
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2012, 04:14:48 PM »
The Worlds and the Wide Open are not the same thing, please don't confuse them. 

Yeah, I understood all the up-in-the-airness around some courses for the last worlds here.  I didn't state it directly, but I think we should know right now which courses we're going to use next year if not even two years down the road.  Even mention of Wyco for this year has me thinking "Oh sh..! So much to do!"   But if called on, we'll get it done out there.

And I agree completely.  i was super irritated when I was at Worlds and they were selling Memorial discs for this year.....I wish we could, and I think that is something to strive for.  We are still needing art for this one, and I would like to have it and next years now!  We could sell next years discs at the end of the event ala USDGC style.....

Along those lines and the thread lines as well, I think that is where having the Outsiders running events would allow the club to focus much more on the Wide Open and have those ideas moving forward for the BoD.....
===o  {>[]----
Jack Lowe-
Parks Development Director for KCFDC
Multiple PDGA Worlds TD
Course Designs
913.485.5123-C
"Disc Golf-
Like ball golf, only faster,
cheaper, and healthier!"

matty

  • Pro Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 340
    • View Profile
Re: Impending Invasions by Outsiders?
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2012, 06:23:47 PM »
this topic went from a possible dd store to a wide open assault. very insightful, loved reading all of it. whenever registration opens, put me down, on andy lewis' tab!
putt, putt, give.

Loomis

  • Guest
Re: Impending Invasions by Outsiders?
« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2012, 09:27:13 AM »
I guess this is a case of "same old, same old." How unfortunate.

ekolk

  • 1000 Rated Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 1510
    • View Profile
Re: Impending Invasions by Outsiders?
« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2012, 05:24:55 PM »
Great thread and great discussion many good points made by many.


On the initial discussion of DD coming to town, the 2011 Ace Race was sponsored by the KCFDC, DGW, and  DD as well as a host of others (Tall Grass, Fore Twenty, P.E.) and without everyone's participation, it would not have been a good event for the players, which we were able to include an additional 50 players with DD's help.

Yes, having DD or other vendors run some events in cooperation with the KCFDC has been discussed in meetings and the conclusion has largely been the club would prefer to have club members run events or even the club run events, but as Jack mentioned, we just do not get enough volunteers from our membership to run as many events as we would like. And if it makes the experience better for the players, then yeah. Personally, as a player not a BoD member, I am happiest with whoever can provide a great event for the players (merch., games, food, beverages, etc.) and give some money back to the club.

Rick has mentioned his interest in working with Jeremy not against him. If it can benefit the club and its members, then why not? There is a big difference here though, the KCFDC is a club. All the others, as Loomis noted, are separate entities with one primary goal: to make money. There is nothing wrong with that but thw two are not comparable in that way.


About the WO, if we as members really want to bring the "magnitude" up on this event, we need to find sponsors, or just be sponsors. Not big ones, just small ones, 25.00, 50.00, 100.00 multiplied by 20,30 or 50 goes a long way towards providing more for the players. I am really happy to see the discussion go back to this event and players saying more of what they want and after reading the initial plans for the WO, it also seems our voices have been heard.  :)