KCFDC Forum

General => Leagues => Topic started by: robm on March 06, 2014, 09:57:59 AM

Title: RESULTS: Spring PDGA League format poll
Post by: robm on March 06, 2014, 09:57:59 AM
I would like to gather interest and opinion regarding a possible PDGA Spring league.  It would run approximately April & May.  Depending on the days/ dates, it may run into June as well.

This is for informational purposes only.  The top choice may not necessarily be the one chosen (if any).  Besides what players would like, it would need to be approved by the BOD and would depend on the perceived impacts on other club leagues.

You can vote twice.  If you have one choice this is strongly favored over the second choice, please leave a comment explaining why.

The fee structure would stay the same as normal KCFDC leagues except for the additional $1 PDGA fee.  Basically, whatever you used to pay (member vs. non-member, ace fund, etc.), add $1.
Title: Re: Spring PDGA League format poll
Post by: robm on March 06, 2014, 12:36:09 PM
Occurred to me that not everyone would know league costs.

They are:

$5
-$1 discount if KCFDC member
+$1 Ace Fund - optional.

PDGA league would be $1 more.

League payouts are provided here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvpFzNKtC7ILdFJoTjBCUXVyb0V0aXFfRHRITXpIOVE#gid=0

Title: Re: Spring PDGA League format poll
Post by: jhinck2 on March 06, 2014, 12:41:27 PM
Occurred to me that not everyone would know league costs.

They are:

$5
-$1 discount if KCFDC member
+$1 Ace Fund - optional.

PDGA league would be $1 more.

League payouts are provided here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvpFzNKtC7ILdFJoTjBCUXVyb0V0aXFfRHRITXpIOVE#gid=0

Rob,

You might re-word this because the way I read it, I would think that club members pay $4 plus +$1 for the ace fund.  Isn't $5 if a member of the club plus $1 for ace fund?  Maybe I'm just behind the times.
Title: Re: Spring PDGA League format poll
Post by: robm on March 06, 2014, 01:36:48 PM
I had a mentor awhile back tell me, 'Never underestimate your ability to be misundersood'.

$5 for everybody.
If you are a member, you get a $1 discount - so it's $4.
If you want an Ace fund, then it's +$1, back up to $5.

Semantics.  You could also say, $4 for everybody, non-members have to pay $1 extra for $5.  But the 'discount' sounds better then the 'non-member' fee.

For this PDGA League, costs would be:

KCFDC Members
With Ace Fund - $6
Without Ace Fund - $5

Non-KCFDC Members
With Ace fund - $7
Without Ace fund - $6



Title: Re: Spring PDGA League format poll
Post by: stevet on March 06, 2014, 02:35:18 PM
I would like a Monday or Tuesday K-7 league that rotates between:
Lakeside
Prairie
SMP
WyCO

I still have concerns about rotating courses on a single PDGA league.  Maybe it would be possible to do separate PDGA leagues for each course?  I am not sure if this would incur additional cost though?
Title: Re: Spring PDGA League format poll
Post by: robm on March 06, 2014, 03:34:08 PM
Steve, PDGA league sanctioning is $25 upfront.

From the $1 collected per person per day, $0.50 goes to PDGA.  The rest goes to the TD to decide.  I was going to use this $0.50 to pay me back the $25 upfront bill I would pay.  If more than $25 is collected from the remaining $0.50, it would depend on how much i left over.  If it is a few bucks, I would just keep it to cover printing costs, etc.  If it is a lot left over, then I would discuss with those that came the most often if we would grill some burgers, have a bonus payout, use it to fund a second 10-week session. 

Regarding Tuesdays, I can't commit to coming to those.  I would come, but just on an irregular day depending if I had to pick up my daughter from fencing (yeah - my 15 yr old daughter fences - how cool is that!).

If this ends up being a Monday rotating, we would have to work some issues out.  For instance, if we went to PC when they were there, my suggestion would be we would join their format and mix players.  I would collect the $1 from the travelers for PDGA, I would let (presumming Tom) collect the KCFDC monies.  Same thing if it was travelling on Wed and we stopped at Rosie.

If Peter wants to sanction a PDGA at SMP on Tuesdays, I think that would be great.  Unfortunately I cannot run it, so I'm not intereted in fronting the $25 registration fee.
Title: Re: Spring PDGA League format poll
Post by: artisan on March 06, 2014, 06:17:41 PM
I have every tuesday available to help run a league..just teach me how and I can commit.  I have a special needs child that I push in a jogging stroller and Shawnee works best for us..just a thought.
Title: Re: Spring PDGA League format poll
Post by: artisan on March 06, 2014, 06:20:34 PM
Pretty much all the k-7 courses steve mentioned are stroller friendly..hole 4 at birdland would be interesting, but we'd manage.

Title: Re: Spring PDGA League format poll
Post by: kevinmzane on March 06, 2014, 08:37:28 PM
I voted. I could only choose 2 but anything but tuesday is great for me. I would really like to see a pdga league at wyco or lakeside. I would make myself available any day for those. Monday and Wednesday are the absolute best for me.
Title: Re: Spring PDGA League format poll
Post by: Peter Bures on March 06, 2014, 11:27:50 PM
I would run this if it were voted to be on Tuesdays at SMP.

However, I like the idea of a rotating KS League. I'd vote for - SMP, Wyco, Lakeside
Title: Re: Spring PDGA League format poll
Post by: sswebber on March 07, 2014, 09:44:16 AM
More PDGA leagues (at any course) would be great.

A Lakeside or Wyco PDGA league would rock my boat.. Along with the last years Cliff.

Having these three leagues on different days would be awesome but understand if not possible.

If anyone wants help with PDGA spreadsheet work, let me know. I would be willing to help out..

Title: Re: Spring PDGA League format poll
Post by: kevinmzane on March 12, 2014, 07:23:06 PM
I know I said Monday or Wednesday (and voted that way) but I would strongly prefer Monday for what it's worth.
Title: Re: RESULTS: Spring PDGA League format poll
Post by: robm on March 13, 2014, 01:35:41 PM
At the BOD meeting last night, the Spring PDGA League was discussed.  It was decided to move WyCo league to Wednesday nights.  This would have the least impact on other leagues and allow for continuity through the season.  I've volunteered to run WyCo league from April until the end of August at a minimum.  If things are still going well, I'll continue through the remainder of the season.

WyCo league will start the first Wednesday of April, April 2. 

The PDGA 10-week league will start April 16.  This delayed start is so we can capture the last Wednesday before the Wide Open in the league format, June 18th.  I'm hoping we get some pro's out there to test the course prior to the tournament.

I have an idea on how I would like to do pin placements.  For the first PDGA date, April 16, I would like to have all 18 holes set on their easiest pins.  Over the 10-week period, we would move 2-3 baskets making it progressively harder until June 18th is set for the Wyandotte KCWO Gold setting.

More information will be forthcoming in this thread:

http://kcfdc.org/forum/index.php?topic=10242.0 (http://kcfdc.org/forum/index.php?topic=10242.0)
Title: Re: RESULTS: Spring PDGA League format poll
Post by: white mccoy on March 13, 2014, 02:12:00 PM
Sounds great!!

I now vote that we move Cliff Drive to Friday Night Party League, in place of Wyco.  This will make Mikey happy.
Title: Re: RESULTS: Spring PDGA League format poll
Post by: L.O.F.T. on March 13, 2014, 02:38:23 PM
What is a PDGA league and why do we need it or want it? Also not very happy to have Friday night league at Wyco taking away without asking the people who play at Wyco on Friday nights.
Title: Re: RESULTS: Spring PDGA League format poll
Post by: robm on March 13, 2014, 02:57:22 PM
L.O.F.T. - What's your name?
Did you chime in when we were discussing this previously?
Who was willing to run WyCo on Friday's?  I'm not aware of anyone volunteering to run it this year.
Title: Re: RESULTS: Spring PDGA League format poll
Post by: L.O.F.T. on March 13, 2014, 03:32:50 PM
First off you didn't answer my question. 2nd my name is Mark. 3rd not a place I go to that much. 4th I wasn't aware there problem with someone run Friday night league. 5th according to your pole changing Wyco to Wednesdays came in tied for 5th place.
Title: Re: RESULTS: Spring PDGA League format poll
Post by: robm on March 13, 2014, 04:05:01 PM
Mark - thanks for replying.  I'm sorry if you feel like the rug was pulled out from under you.  It's understandable that you're annoyed.

Before I got into a discussion, I simply wanted to know who I'm talking with.   My name is Rob Martin.

PDGA leagues come in various formats.  The format for this league will be the same as normal singles KCFDC leagues. 

Similiarities include:

1. Singles format.
2. Same divisions for payouts.  It takes 3 to make a payout division.
3. Pros get actual cash.  Ams get KC Kash.
4. Beer is still ok during league. (As opposed during a sanctioned PDGA tournament)
5. Payout schedule is the approved KCFDC schedule found here:

http://kcfdc.org/forum/index.php?topic=9359.0 (http://kcfdc.org/forum/index.php?topic=9359.0)

The differences are:

1. It costs $1 more.  Half of this dollar goes to the PDGA, the other half goes to me to cover my upfront registration fee.  If there is a significant amount left over, I have some ideas on how we can use it including, free beer at the end of the season / league / whatever, grill some burgers, have a bonus payout, prizes for those that came the most, register another 10-week session.  These are just ideas and not promises.
3. The rounds are reported to the PDGA and are rated.  If at least 5 propogators played, we will see tentative ratings immediately. If less than 5 propogators play an evening, we won't see a rating until official ratings are updated.

That answers your first question.

#2 - Mark who?

#3.  Unfortunately not using the forum causes members to miss out on what is happening with our club.  I would recommend checking in here regularly.

#4 - Regarding problems running Friday night league.  The former league director, Timko, requested volunteers for WyCo.  His request was posted here since February 20:

http://kcfdc.org/forum/index.php?topic=10176.0 (http://kcfdc.org/forum/index.php?topic=10176.0)

As my suggestion was approved by the KCFDC Board of Directors, I can only surmise that no one stepped forward to run the Friday night league.

#5 - The poll was for information purposes only and not a vote to all of the KCFDC members.  (By the way - just asking - are you a current paid KCFDC member?)  Up above I wrote:

Quote
I would like to gather interest and opinion regarding a possible PDGA Spring league...

This is for informational purposes only.  The top choice may not necessarily be the one chosen (if any).  Besides what players would like, it would need to be approved by the BOD and would depend on the perceived impacts on other club leagues.


Please remember, this PDGA league and moving WyCo to Wednesday was approved by the Board of Directors, the governing body of our club, that were elected by the club's members. 

Without having someone stepping forward to run a WyCo Friday league, it is reasonable that the WyCo Friday would cease to exist beyond just a couple of people getting together for a casual round.  You can still do that any Friday as long as it doesn't conflict with the club's happenings (like Friday KCWO weekend).

As far as why the other choices were not chosen even though they may have gotten more votes:

Traveling leagues playing the same night and/or courses as established leagues could *possibly* have been disruptive to those leagues.  It was ill advised.  I included it in my poll because it was brought up.  Maybe someday in the future this could be a possibility, but not now as a KCFDC league for this spring.

Monday was not chosen because of the already successful Olathe league on the same side of town.  Same as Tuesday with SMP.  I couldn't run Tuesday anyway.

So it came down to Wednesday or Thursday.  Wednesday was chosen as the consensus was it would be less disruptive with Rosedale than with Water Works because of the perceived type of players that frequent those leauges.  As I was the one actually volunteering to run the league, I requested Wednesday as my first choice. 

I hope this did not sound snarky, that is not my intention.

Let me know if you have any more questions. 
Title: Re: RESULTS: Spring PDGA League format poll
Post by: robm on March 13, 2014, 04:25:33 PM
I meant to include this -

Looking over the Balance Sheet and Income Statements last night I noticed league income.  The highest was either WW or Rosedale, I don't recall which, but they were over $1400 for the year.

Most were in the $500-$900 range.

WyCo was last, 10th place, at $181 if I remember correctly.  Even Cliff league brought in approximately 2x as much.

Changing WyCo league to Wednesday could be the catalyst to revitalize the league and course. 
Title: Re: RESULTS: Spring PDGA League format poll
Post by: L.O.F.T. on March 13, 2014, 05:51:46 PM
Well I'll volunteer to run Wyco on Friday nights. I also see know need to run a PGDA league. As far as Wyco making money it helps if people know how much the ace fund is. I can tell you when the ace fund starts to climb more people come out. Last year the ace fund recording and payout seem to be a problem for most courses. Right now does anyone know what the ace funds are at because they're not posted. Mark Hogins KCFDC: 750
Title: Re: RESULTS: Spring PDGA League format poll
Post by: robm on March 13, 2014, 06:18:09 PM
Thanks for identifying yourself Mark.   I'll defer to the BOD about this because it's not really my call.

As info:

Ace Funds:
Rosedale - 213
WyCo - 322
Cliff - 430
WW - 449
Swope 519
Legacy 371
PC 437
Lakeside 177
SMP 409
Young 92

League Income:
SMP  $1489 (sorry Peter, referenced Rosie up above)
WW - $1425
Rosedale - 923
Swope 876
Legacy 376
Cliff 348
Lakeside 271
Young 255
PC 214
WyCo 181

My observations about league revenue.  While the numbers don't perfectly match attendance because this really only tracks non-members, I do think it shows trends.  WyCo is last.  It's even behind PC and Lakeside on an individual course basis which only ran 50% of the time because they alternated.

Admittedly, I've never played a WyCo league.  I'm not interested in Friday nights.  I would guess, based on the numbers above, my opinion is shared by a lot of other people.
Title: Re: RESULTS: Spring PDGA League format poll
Post by: white mccoy on March 13, 2014, 09:15:03 PM
Whaaa, whaaaa. I have played quite a few Friday leagues at Wyco over the years, and after Arturo took half the $2,200 ace fund, and somebody hit it again shortly after, attendance died off from what I could tell. Last year was lucky to see 5 people out any given Friday.

A little change doesn't hurt that bad.

I'll see u on as many Wednesdays as I can make it Rob.



Title: Re: RESULTS: Spring PDGA League format poll
Post by: eeastwood on March 13, 2014, 09:50:44 PM

League Income:
SMP  $1489 (sorry Peter, referenced Rosie up above)


What the heck is going on at SMP?  Is that number real?  Does the club get kickbacks for tickets given out by the cops that is included in that number?  I am flabbergasted by that.
Title: Re: RESULTS: Spring PDGA League format poll
Post by: robm on March 13, 2014, 10:26:09 PM
Of the leagues I've gone to (WW, Swope, Cliff 10 weeks straight, Rosedale Mondays and Wednesday) I was shocked WW didn't just blow all leagues out of the water.
Title: Re: RESULTS: Spring PDGA League format poll
Post by: robm on March 13, 2014, 10:28:32 PM
Of the consistent Wyco leaguers on Fridays (consistent defined as 50% or more of the time) what is your opinion of moving league to Wednesday?
Title: Re: RESULTS: Spring PDGA League format poll
Post by: white mccoy on March 14, 2014, 07:51:15 AM

League Income:
SMP  $1489 (sorry Peter, referenced Rosie up above)


What the heck is going on at SMP?  Is that number real?  Does the club get kickbacks for tickets given out by the cops that is included in that number?  I am flabbergasted by that.
I was thinking the same thing Eric.  Got to be a mistake in the data there.

Went to a couple SMP leagues last year, and there was never more than 6 players when I was there.  Maybe that is total $ since SMP was put in back in 2007.
Title: Re: RESULTS: Spring PDGA League format poll
Post by: robm on March 14, 2014, 09:08:09 AM
I may have read the Income Statement wrong.  I can either double check it when I have time this evening, or if someone has the correct numbers, please post them.
Title: Re: RESULTS: Spring PDGA League format poll
Post by: robm on March 14, 2014, 09:19:31 AM
While the numbers may be off a tad towards the bottom, and the numbers don't actually give a 100% picture of attendance because it would only show non-members playing and not members, it does give an indication to the attendance level overall.

Actually, I think members should have more of a say than non-members.  It is ran and supported by the club.  But without some data mining, it does help the discussion.

Title: Re: RESULTS: Spring PDGA League format poll
Post by: otter on March 14, 2014, 10:26:29 AM
I 'was' a WyCo regular for many, many years.  I've since chosen to spend my Friday nights with my gal and rarely make WyCo league night anymore for the last several years.  Breaking a longtime tradition will always make some waves...you can count on that.  If there was much discussion about this move, then I sure missed it.

I don't have much of an opinion about doing WyCo league PDGA-style.  I'm not even sure if this is mandatory or optional.  If one is not a member or is non-current, can one opt out?  Spending the extra $1 is a non-issue.

I coined the WyCo Friday Night league as "The Perfect End to an Imperfect Week".  Wishing I had made some shirts with this and some kind of artwork as a memorabilia.   :'(

IFF this move to Wed night is permanent, I hope it makes WyCo League Night better in the long run. 
doc / KCFDC #419

Title: Re: RESULTS: Spring PDGA League format poll
Post by: Utz on March 17, 2014, 08:17:26 PM
Just look at league attendance for 2013:

WW729
Rosie449
Swope421
PC/Birdland341
Cliff/BV214
Legacy172
WyCo163
SMP141
Blue Springs126


Title: Re: RESULTS: Spring PDGA League format poll
Post by: jamidanger on March 17, 2014, 11:13:31 PM
that would make more sense by 'day-of-week' attendance for this comparison