KCFDC Forum

General => Beginners => Topic started by: CHAS. on April 10, 2008, 10:21:26 AM

Title: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: CHAS. on April 10, 2008, 10:21:26 AM
I am not a long thrower (250) at best but trying to throw longer the disc gets a bad case of the wobbles when leaving my hand to about 75ft. sometimes is short of 250. Any suggestions?
 Just had two toes whittled on so I am laid up and bored.
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: phisherman_77 on April 10, 2008, 10:24:50 AM
make sure to keep your pull level across your chest and also to follow through on a consistent line.
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: Timko on April 10, 2008, 11:51:45 AM
I often see players in that 250' mark throwing discs that are too stable for them.  The newer high speed drivers (Wraith, Rex, Surge and the like) all requrire a significant amount of velocity and spin to get them up to "cruising speed," which is the speed at which a driver flies straight without banking off to one side or another.  To make up for a lack of velocity, some players torque their shoulders over.  This creates an unlevel throw (as phisherman mentioned), which can create that wobble, and most importantly, a serious decrease in distance.  It's important to keep your disc line and shoulder line parallel.  Assuming you throw backhanded right handed, if your right shoulder is level with your left shoulder, then the disc should be thrown on a level plane.  If your right shoulder is higher than your left shoulder, the disc should be thrown on a low to high plane.  If your right shoulder is lower than your left shoulder, than the disc should be thrown on a high to low plane.  Also make sure you aren't rolling your wrist.  If your wrist is rotating clockwise when you're throwing, then it's rolling.  While this is desirable on some throws, you don't want to have it when your learning to throw.

Until you get that wobble out of your throw, stick with fairway drivers (speed 7 and below on the Innova scale) or midranges.  80% power, 100% technique.  You'll be amazed at how far those older school drivers can go.  They're very accurate and very forgiving.  Something like a dx leopard or dx cheetah would probably serve you well.  d cyclone or d XL if you want to go the discraft route.
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: phisherman_77 on April 10, 2008, 12:28:02 PM
chris, i swear i've seen that exact post on discgolfreview.com about 5000 times.   ;D
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: Timko on April 10, 2008, 12:43:27 PM
chris, i swear i've seen that exact post on discgolfreview.com about 5000 times.   ;D

No way.  :)

I think I've wrote that post on DGR about 2000 of those times. 

The site phisherman is referencing is a great source of information about throwing mechanics.
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: Sly on April 10, 2008, 04:08:13 PM
The wobble could be caused by gripping too tight and not having a smooth transfer of momentum.
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: otter on April 11, 2008, 10:56:01 AM
Are you throwing backhand or forehand?
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: CD on April 11, 2008, 01:41:41 PM
"wobble" is the disc equivalent of a Baseball knuckle ball. No or little spin.  Lack of sufficient spin relative to air speed for the disc design will most always result in wobble.  Two solutions; throw slower, which is no good if you're looking for greater distance or put more spin on the disc.  A little wrist action snap should do it.  Seek out CD. He is the master if you want to go extreme spin.

Well, thank you, thank you very much! You're no slouch yourself... Actually I don't put ANY spin on it, I just WILL it to go FAAARRR! My next sighting may very well be this Sunday at Pleasant Hill!
~CD~
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: CHAS. on April 11, 2008, 02:27:59 PM
 Thanks to everbody who replied I see I need to practice a lot more when I get on my feet again about everything I am doing wrong has been mentioned especially dropping of the shoulders and gripping to tight the only thing I question is rolling of the wrist. Don't you want the wrist to roll? I do throw rightbackhand and speed of disc must be a factor cause my favorites are an Eagle and a Valkyre since been throwing a lot can't hardly throw a Shark with any accuracy any more.
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: CD on April 11, 2008, 04:14:58 PM
Thanks to everbody who replied I see I need to practice a lot more when I get on my feet again about everything I am doing wrong has been mentioned especially dropping of the shoulders and gripping to tight the only thing I question is rolling of the wrist. Don't you want the wrist to roll? I do throw rightbackhand and speed of disc must be a factor cause my favorites are an Eagle and a Valkyre since been throwing a lot can't hardly throw a Shark with any accuracy any more.

Try to work everything from hyzer, since that is the power shot (and the default flight). Watching David Feldberg at The Memorial (and on DiscGolfTV.com) he, like, never "rolls" his wrist - everything is "from hyzer". I noted that her very seldom used a turnover shot, because the course played to his power (hyzer). But, NOT having a turnover when required, can hurt too.
~CD~
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: Timko on April 13, 2008, 09:31:45 AM
Thanks to everbody who replied I see I need to practice a lot more when I get on my feet again about everything I am doing wrong has been mentioned especially dropping of the shoulders and gripping to tight the only thing I question is rolling of the wrist. Don't you want the wrist to roll? I do throw rightbackhand and speed of disc must be a factor cause my favorites are an Eagle and a Valkyre since been throwing a lot can't hardly throw a Shark with any accuracy any more.


Sounds like a wrist rolling issue.  As Tracy said, this isn't good for the form.  I would imagine you're making up for the stability of your drivers by rolling your wrist, which is why you can't throw a Shark anymore, unless the shark is super light (150) or super super super beat up.

I think it's tough to learn how to snap with premium plastics.  If you're throwing a Champ or Star in either of those molds, then it requires good snap to get them to fly straight.  Otherwise, you've got to roll your wrist, lower your shoulders, or introduce some other form of torque to get the disc to stay straight.  Investing in a fairway driver in the low end plastic like an Innova Gazelle, Cheetah (little less stable than the gazelle, so it will take less snap to keep it straight), a Discraft XL or Cyclone, or Gateway Sabre might be benifical until you get some more form down. 

The best idea is optimally to put your drivers away and learn to throw the Shark 250 (pros can put these out in the 330'+ range), but switching to a fairway driver would work equally as well.
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: Keizer on April 13, 2008, 05:29:45 PM
I'm having similar problems with my long-range shots, and I think it may be due to rolling my wrist as well. Definitely need to pay more mind to that.

Also, it's weird how the different plastics can be a factor. I like to buy the Star and Champ discs because they don't gouge as easily, and here I thought I was doing myself a favor by investing in a more durable disc. Come to think of it, I do tend to throw well when practicing behind my house with my "junk" DX plastic. I get out on the course with my premium plastic, though, and my long throws go to sh1t. Maybe I need to give those DX discs another shot.
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: Timko on April 13, 2008, 09:10:25 PM
I'm currently dealing tooling with my technique right now as well, and am using dx valkyries.  When I can throw these with 80% power and 100% technique, and crush them on big hyzer-flip S lines, I know my technique is sound.  I also work with dx teebirds, because they can be hyzer flipped and thrown super straight with minimal fade. 

dx discs teach you a lot about flight paths and line shaping.
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: CD on April 13, 2008, 09:24:56 PM
Rolling the wrist and snapping from the wrist are completely different things.  Rolling the wrist (which is really more a rotation of the forearm at the elbow) is not good for a general throwing motion.  Snapping the wrist increases disc rotation out of the hand (imagine whip snapping a towel). I've seen Climo snapping a disc towel to stay warm while waiting at a tee.   Careful not to go overboard with snap at first. If you do, you'll find yourself loosing directional control.   Also don't be afraid of a strong grip.  Not white knuckled, but a firm grip while while still keeping the wrist, forearm and elbow relaxed works well. 


I see a lot of folks with their thumb TOO CLOSE to the rim. Whoop, there it goes! Grab ahold of that thing! Put your thumb on the plate - not the edge. Grip it and Rip it!
~CD~
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: Mantis on April 13, 2008, 10:04:00 PM
I am currently looking to try a new disc other than my original CE Firebirds because they S too easliy now..  Any suggestions :)
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: Timko on April 13, 2008, 10:14:29 PM
A Flat E Spirit is probably the most stable driver I've ever thrown.

Steve, what about Predators?  I bet they're straighter in the high speed portion of their flight than you're looking for.  A Z Pred may be what you're after. 

Other than that, there's the Max, the RexX (still not stable enough for you), the new XCaliber, and the Discraft Force.  I've not thrown any of those new molds because they're too stable for me, but may work for you.
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: Sly on April 14, 2008, 01:56:52 PM
You could buy some new Firebirds...
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: Timko on April 14, 2008, 02:12:20 PM
Or he could learn to throw a normal disc like the rest of us :D.
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: The Bird Father on April 14, 2008, 02:43:38 PM
I am currently looking to try a new disc other than my original CE Firebirds because they S too easliy now..  Any suggestions :)

Try Aerobie, I hear they make good discs....   ::)

Heck an upside down pie tin may fly better than a Firebird.
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: Mantis on April 14, 2008, 05:59:27 PM
funny  funny    10000 comedians out of work and half of them play disc.     thanks for the real advise   i'll have to try one of them
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: phisherman_77 on April 14, 2008, 06:04:33 PM
so you looking to get rid of any of those CE firebirds?  hmmmmmm?

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

i've been bugging you about those discs for quite a while now dresser
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: Mantis on April 14, 2008, 09:38:14 PM
i'm still not completely sure about getting rid of them  but i am looking for a chance to improve my game... we can work something out for 1 or 2 of them   just tell me the weight and style and i'll see what i have
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: Timko on April 15, 2008, 09:23:34 AM
Steve, I know you throw a lot of turnovers.  Why don't you throw hyzer flips?  You could throw less stable plastic (like the Rex), and bomb them I bet.  They would also fly on a lot straighter lines.
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: Mantis on April 15, 2008, 08:14:21 PM
i'll have to try that thanks
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: kohjahk on April 16, 2008, 09:20:18 AM
Heck an upside down pie tin may fly better than a Firebird.
The last two days have been perfect examples of why the firebird exists.  The Wind.
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: Sly on April 16, 2008, 01:24:14 PM
A Star Max may be a very good disc for you to try. It is at least as stable as a firebird, but much faster. You will get more distance.

However, you mentioned that you are trying to improve your game, which does not necessarily translate to more distance. If you want to improve your ability to throw any shot, then you would benefit greatly from learning to throw more understable discs on any line. This will force you to develope touch, and will improve your general accuracy tremendously. Also, if improving your game equals scoring better, then becoming a more consistant putter is probably the most important thing. This one guy has won 12 world championships, and I would guess that is because he putts better than anyone else, and is probably more accurate, too. His signature shot is a hyzer-flip up with a worn-in stable driver.
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: phisherman_77 on April 16, 2008, 01:40:33 PM
i think dresser has got plenty of touch, as in probably a little too much touch.  he can work those ce firebirds pretty well.
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: Timko on April 16, 2008, 03:27:32 PM
i think dresser has got plenty of touch, as in probably a little too much touch.  he can work those ce firebirds pretty well.

Do you think Steve could throw a new dx valkyrie 400'?  Without rolling it?  I've never seen him throw anything accept a firebird, a buzz, or a wizard.  Steve doesn't seem to throw a lot of hyzer flips, and I think that shot with an understable disc could  benefit his game immensely.
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: phisherman_77 on April 16, 2008, 03:53:10 PM
oh probably. i think steve just knows his firebirds really well.

if he can throw a buzz effectively apparently he has touch.  he's definitely got some power.  i might recommend a star starfire to him; they're WAY more stable than the pro starfires, have good glide and seem less squirrelly than wraiths and destroyers.  a buddy of mine w/ a big arm bombs the heck out of these.
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: The Can tankerous A.N.G on April 16, 2008, 08:11:41 PM
I won a sweet Predator in Tulsa for CTP. Very stable. Anyone who sees me is very welcome to borrow/throw it.
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: Timko on April 17, 2008, 09:06:04 AM
oh probably. i think steve just knows his firebirds really well.

if he can throw a buzz effectively apparently he has touch.  he's definitely got some power.  i might recommend a star starfire to him; they're WAY more stable than the pro starfires, have good glide and seem less squirrelly than wraiths and destroyers.  a buddy of mine w/ a big arm bombs the heck out of these.

The pro starfire is the same mold as the Star SL.  The Star Starfire is the X Mold.  Sprague said he liked throwing them into headwinds.

Honestly, Steve, I think you should throw old CE Teebirds (not TL's; you'll have to look at the wing because they both have teebird stamps) or Star Teebirds.  Very straight, and I think he could learn to hyzer flip those and just crush 'em on some sick line drives.

Also, something like the new XCaliber or Force by Discraft may be up your alley.  Super fast, and pretty stable.
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: Nathan Lang on May 16, 2008, 12:27:23 PM
Thanks to everbody who replied I see I need to practice a lot more when I get on my feet again about everything I am doing wrong has been mentioned especially dropping of the shoulders and gripping to tight the only thing I question is rolling of the wrist. Don't you want the wrist to roll? I do throw rightbackhand and speed of disc must be a factor cause my favorites are an Eagle and a Valkyre since been throwing a lot can't hardly throw a Shark with any accuracy any more.

So I take it based on this post, it was the Shark that was WoBbLinG? One of my first discs was a Shark and I quit throwing it because it was wobbling everytime I tried to drive it (thought this was because it got some teeth marks from my dog. I suppose that could still be part of the reason)

Anyway, while I wouldn't tee off with it anymore, I recently I started using that Shark for throws 150 ft or less and it's incredible how accurate it can be for approach shots (thanks Bob)
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: Mantis on May 16, 2008, 07:41:08 PM
i brought out some of my teebirds and they flip over way too easily,   i need to find the fine line of how to release them,,,,,   thanks all for the criticism
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: Keizer on May 16, 2008, 09:30:00 PM
I have a couple Tee Birds (a Pro and a Tee Bird "L", whatever that is), and they both flip too easily for me as well. I throw a forehand drive so that might be a factor.

Furthur, what's the deal with the different molds? Why would a Pro and Star Starfires be made from different molds? I thought it was only the polymers that were different? Just curious is all...
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: Schoen-hopper on May 16, 2008, 09:45:00 PM
There is no disc more different in the same model than a pro and champ starfire. 

SL's, like TL's have a leopard bottom, which gives them more low speed glide, but they turn over easier.  More understable.  Totally different disc.
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: will on May 17, 2008, 06:29:34 AM
my star sl flips right very easy and has since it was brand new.  and i have no arm......

it's not what i would call a stable disc.


Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: otter on May 17, 2008, 09:36:53 AM
There is no disc more different in the same model than a pro and champ starfire. 

SL's, like TL's have a leopard~LIKE bottom, which gives them more low speed glide, but they turn over easier.  More understable.  Totally different disc.

GLOW~emphasis mine.  The "L" stands for less-stable...and is somewhat Leopard-like.
Title: Re: Throwin Wobblers
Post by: Timko on May 18, 2008, 06:59:19 AM
There is no disc more different in the same model than a pro and champ starfire. 

SL's, like TL's have a leopard~LIKE bottom, which gives them more low speed glide, but they turn over easier.  More understable.  Totally different disc.

GLOW~emphasis mine.  The "L" stands for less-stable...and is somewhat Leopard-like.

Correct.  The difference between the L and the X mold is the concavity of the lip (look at an SX and an SL), and, in the case of a lot of the fairway drivers, a bead or notch (the T and TL is a bead, the EL and EX is a notch).