KCFDC Forum

General => Tournaments => Topic started by: john theiss on September 15, 2011, 09:08:32 AM

Title: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: john theiss on September 15, 2011, 09:08:32 AM
It is time to get folks thinking and generating ideas for the monumental 30th Anniversary of the KCWO.  We wanted to start a thread where folks can share any ideas that they have.  This is our event KC and we want your ideas.  There is great history that surrounds this event due to Kansas Citians working so hard and giving so much of their time to make it memorable.  How can we all make it better?  Please give us your ideas.
-pros and cons of last year
-what you would like to see this year?
-what will it take for you to play?
-where would you like to volunteer-course prep ideas, TDing, crowd control, artwork, etc
-what do you see and experience at other top-notch events and how can the KCFDC reproduce that?
-number of days for the event(depends on how it is sanctioned)
-which courses do want to see being used for the event?
-ideas for host hotels
-players party ideas, who wants to be part of a social chair and plan out drink specials at local taverns?
-trophy only for AMs?  pros and cons of going that route.  How would you like for it to be set up
-do you have an ounce of artistic talent?  Start generating ideas for an image that could become iconic and part of disc golf history.

It is time to start creating buzz for this event and make it "THE EVENT"  that folks all over the US want to be involved with. 
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: ajinks on September 15, 2011, 09:51:12 AM
As an out-of-towner (Joplin), the trophy only for Advanced kept me from playing in the 29th WO all-together.  I was skeptical I would get my moneys worth out of the players pack because of the 28th Wide Open, my first one ever, when I got an ABC putter as the disc and a heavy-weight dri-fit (both unusable items).  I did play in Worlds the year before though and I do understand the time and money contrstaints the 28th WO fell under the year after Worlds.  I'm not dogging anything, I'm just presenting the out-of-towner view as a 935ish rated Advanced player who would drop almost anything if there was a chance to go play several KC courses. 

So for me to play, Advanced needs to have a nice payout and a non-crappy players pack.  (We do both in Joplin for our annual event, so I know taking care of the Pros AND Am's can be done.)
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: coops on September 15, 2011, 10:30:40 AM
1. Pro and Am weekend- Keeps the volunteer pools full for both events and reduces time-strain and other factors. Plus, it lets the Ams play the best courses too (and reduces how much work needs to be done on the courses as a whole). I would vote for a 3-day Pro weekend and a 2-day Am weekend.

2. BIGGER PAYOUT for Pros. As far as I understand it that has been the knock against the KCWO for a while. To get people to come to this event there needs to be a way to make travel money back and the way to do that is to beef up payout (obviously easier said than done, maybe a title sponsor?). Along with maintaining NT status this will keep the event as prestigious as it needs to be.

3. IF the Am side is trophy only, it needs to be cheaper. I don't want to play Am anymore but, if I were to, playing trophy only is fine, just as long as the buy-in isn't overwhelming. I also thought the players' pack this year was lacking. Yes, you got three discs, but only one disc that I actually like, and when you flood the market with Hurricanes it makes it impossible to trade or sell it to someone who actually uses that disc.

Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: phisherman_77 on September 15, 2011, 10:39:50 AM
2. BIGGER PAYOUT for Pros. As far as I understand it that has been the knock against the KCWO for a while. To get people to come to this event there needs to be a way to make travel money back and the way to do that is to beef up payout (obviously easier said than done, maybe a title sponsor?). Along with maintaining NT status this will keep the event as prestigious as it needs to be.

Haven't we typically paid a little deeper so that the payout is not so top heavy?
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: Hanthrolo on September 15, 2011, 10:58:19 AM
Get the Royals to sponsor, get Glass to give it up to some home-town goodness, Have local and top pros throw out of the park exhibition during , before or after a game, couple with a disc giveaway to the first umm 5000,....Stupid idea??????  Id go to the game!!
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: jack on September 15, 2011, 11:04:19 AM
2. BIGGER PAYOUT for Pros. As far as I understand it that has been the knock against the KCWO for a while. To get people to come to this event there needs to be a way to make travel money back and the way to do that is to beef up payout (obviously easier said than done, maybe a title sponsor?). Along with maintaining NT status this will keep the event as prestigious as it needs to be.

I have NEVER heard that about KC, the only payout complaints have been on the AM side, where did you come up (hear, perception from others etc....curious) with this idea?
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: gleauzinier on September 15, 2011, 11:22:46 AM
gotta agree with jlowe, ever since the very first one where we had the highest payout of any tourney short of worlds, kcwo has almost always been in the top ten payouts. palmer's right the payout is usually deeper.
sounds like we need some ams to step up and make sure the sponsorship is there for the am player packet and am payout to meet their expectations. who's it gonna be?
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: HaterAde on September 15, 2011, 11:39:56 AM
All I know is the Tower Tavern party was awesome! Hope to see that go down next year as well!
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: jack on September 15, 2011, 11:53:10 AM
The notion of Trophy only is fast approaching the standard on the am side.  I see where there are concerns about the payout from a few, and the pricing.

So I will ask what would you rather see, less product, or less money (entry) for the am's?

TO me its completely silly that we gave away 3 discs, 2 shirts, a glass (still available at DGW) to every am plus got them into the ace fund, and paid the PDGA fee for $50.

How much cheaper can an A-Tier be?  Had trophies for every division at least 4 deep, and in Adv Men, had it for the top 5.

If you go cheaper on the entry, there will be nothing to give to the players.

More National events are going to be done this way.  I can GUARANTEE it, I talk with enough TD's out there to know this is the case, and almost all of the big events HATED the fact that we only charged $50, they all felt that this was too little.

Now on the counterside, if we do raise the AM fee to $75 (it will be more than $50 next year I can almost promise that) we will work on having even more cool items that you will be able to leave with.

So are you saying that you want Trophy only events to be $30 with no-frills to cover the cost of the trophies, and have a few CTP's during the event, cover the ace fund, cover the PDGA costs, is that the better option?

Let me know, cuz I can go Super Cheap, and really not be upset at all about it, then what it will mean though is that you will have to buy at retail prices any discs that you want as a momento of the event......still not giving out a "big payout" on the AM side.  That part of the event is probably done in the future of the Disc Golf in Major events unless you want to see a higher entry fee.

Now some sponsors will donate, and we will get that to the players, but many sponsors want to get paid for their items as well.....so some items will still happen, but not as good as you may think in years past, but in all honesty then all the players win, not just the top 35-40% of the field, which as an amateur sport is the way that it should be, and is in almost every other sport, with the exception of disc golf.

THese are my thoughts currently, but I know that I am not alone in the thinking of this type of program.

Keep the ideas coming, and please don't let my conversation prevent you from thinking that I am a Viagra-less used item on this, I am wanting to know what makes sense, and what your thoughts are, but I also want to make sure that you have realistic expectations when you start to look at tournaments in size and scope of an NT.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: eeastwood on September 15, 2011, 12:43:55 PM
I know alot of ams didn't play in the KCWO because it was trophy only for the ams.   I was very disappointed in how many people showed up for the tournament on the am side.  More AMs showed up for the KCWO in 2010 as B tier vs. the 2011 A tier.  Personally, I liked the tournament better in 2010 than this year. 

If "the notion of Trophy only is fast approaching the standard on the am side", then I probably won't play many events.  And I don't think I'm alone.  These types of tournaments are going to draw fewer ams. The larger player's pack was okay, but I don't think it was enough to offset the difference especially since it was A tier had to shell out another $50 for the PDGA membership.  And looking back now, I don't think it was worth it.  Please eliminate the trophy only for KCWO 2012. 

Here's what I liked about the 29th KCWO vs. the 28th.  I liked that the Sunday was only one round so I could go watch the pros play.  I liked the courses chosen, but I would have liked to play Swope Gold.  For 30th KCWO, I would like to see Water works, Swope Gold, and Rosie.  I liked the "heavy-weight dri-fit" shirt from 2010.  It was better than the shirts I got in 2011 player's pack.  I also liked the player's party at Rosie in 2010 and would like to see something similar return, possibly on Friday night. 
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: The Bird Father on September 15, 2011, 01:03:06 PM
I agree that trophy only SUCKS, especially with the crappy player pack we got...thanks to DD for the cool shirt.

I wanted to play Open, but the cost was too great....seems like every year this sport get more exspensive to play, which is scaring a ton of people away.  Disc golf is a cheap hobby for most people and trying to get them to pay $100 w/ pdga for a AM trophy only event will kill the sport...or atelast the pdga.  I think there is a ton wrong with the pdga, but that is another subject.

Overall...reduce cost of entry, period.  Get sponsors and boost the purse.  I ran the ram'n'salmon and every single person that got paid was overwhelmed with their pay...pro and am alike....why?  Cuz I worked my azz of to get sponsors and then I only had to take a couple bucks outta each entry...the rest was payout.

How about a "Pro2" division for the pdga?  Cheaper, more
inviting and wide open for the notorious "KC Sandbaggers"!

The player party at tower was awesome...but that is also due to the "sexy chicken dance" on the bar!
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: twoDornottwoD on September 15, 2011, 01:29:05 PM
trophy only is the only way to go.  it solves the bagger problems.  i do like the local trend with dan howard and others doing trophy discs.  atleast the player has the option to throw it or hang it on the wall.

i agree that the pro's fee's have gotten way too high.  pdga fees excluded, $120 for a 3 round tournament is $40 a round and $12-$20/hr of competition.  these are nfl rates.  the big boys need to clean up their act and help with the sponsorship and quit living off the backs of their other competitors.  if they can't assist with this, they need to be prepared to get off the road and get a "normal" job and compete on the weekends.  pro tournament prices nearly doubled in the last 5-8 years while our country is in a recession.  disc golf is not a big enough sponsorship draw yet to support the number of "full-time" players we currently have.

my .02
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: Rick Rothstein on September 15, 2011, 01:35:43 PM
I think trophy only is a good idea, but it can be done differently. For instance, for packages, give out about half of the value with a cool commemorative item (a spectacular shirt or something unique like a stool or umbrella) and then give a voucher for the rest that would be redeemable at any sponsoring vendor. Then for those ams who feel that winning stuff is important offer an optional $25 prize pool. I think $50 (plus the fees that go to the PDGA) is a reasonable entry fee. Thus, those players who are content with trophy only would pay $50 and prize-seeking ams would  pay $75.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: Timko on September 15, 2011, 01:38:06 PM
trophy only is the only way to go.  it solves the bagger problems.  i do like the local trend with dan howard and others doing trophy discs.  atleast the player has the option to throw it or hang it on the wall.

I actually thought the trophies from last year were spectacular.  While I like dyed discs, I think trophies need to actually look like trophies, not something you throw.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: eeastwood on September 15, 2011, 01:39:49 PM
Explain to me why trophy only is the only way to go.  I think it sucks.  Because it's easier to run?  Maybe the pros should be play for trophys only.     

Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: Timko on September 15, 2011, 01:45:41 PM
Why should Ams have to play for prizes?  Why can't they just play for a title?  I suppose some folks need to actually win something tangible, but I play tournaments to beat other people.  No one that plays Am is making a living off of playing that division, so if you're playing Am, you're doing it as a hobby to put your skills against the skills of others.  If you need some extra motivation to play well, make some 1 on 1 side bets with folks.

Also, I like the optional prize pool.  It lets people play for different reasons (prizes vs. competition).
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: coops on September 15, 2011, 02:06:59 PM
2. BIGGER PAYOUT for Pros. As far as I understand it that has been the knock against the KCWO for a while. To get people to come to this event there needs to be a way to make travel money back and the way to do that is to beef up payout (obviously easier said than done, maybe a title sponsor?). Along with maintaining NT status this will keep the event as prestigious as it needs to be.

I have NEVER heard that about KC, the only payout complaints have been on the AM side, where did you come up (hear, perception from others etc....curious) with this idea?

Not sure if I can put a finger on where I heard this. Like most of those amorphous perception things I'm sure it didn't have one source. I'm sure someone has the numbers though. What was the purse for the WO compared with the other NTs this year?

And, even if it is similar, isn't more money for payout one of the best ways to publicize the event? Isn't that why this year's worlds was billed as the first $100,000 worlds ever?

Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: coops on September 15, 2011, 02:11:21 PM
TO me its completely silly that we gave away 3 discs, 2 shirts, a glass (still available at DGW) to every am plus got them into the ace fund, and paid the PDGA fee for $50.


Didn't we have to pay for ace fund if we wanted in? I'm pretty sure that is the way it normally works.

And, how long have we had glasses at DGW? I guess that might have been a good thing to get the word out about a little better.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: sirbronco on September 15, 2011, 02:19:11 PM
TO me its completely silly that we gave away 3 discs, 2 shirts, a glass (still available at DGW) to every am plus got them into the ace fund, and paid the PDGA fee for $50.


Didn't we have to pay for ace fund if we wanted in? I'm pretty sure that is the way it normally works.

And, how long have we had glasses at DGW? I guess that might have been a good thing to get the word out about a little better.

The "Word" has been out since June.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: coops on September 15, 2011, 02:33:58 PM
Guess I missed it. Did we receive an email or something about this?
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: jamidanger on September 15, 2011, 02:44:59 PM
ok, here's an idea:
 lower the entry fees for everyone, and have sponsorships for the following places -
     1st place mpo sponsored by ___________highest sponsor in dollars
     1st place fpo sponsored by ____________second highest sponsor
     1st place mpm sponsored by __________ third highest sponsor
     10th place mpg sponsored by__________barclays bank and courvosier and aristocrat motors
            etc, etc
that way everybody can play cheaper, and our sponsors get much more recognition
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: eeastwood on September 15, 2011, 03:04:29 PM
Jack kept saying wait until you get your player's pack and you will see. "player's packs will be stocked with items that will make everyone glad that they came to the event."  Well I got it, and I frankly was underwhelmed.  I'm not sorry I played this year, but next if next year's event is the same way, then I likely won't.  It's about value for my money.  Looking forward (before the tournament) it seemed reasonable, after getting my hands on the player's pack, it didn't. 

I like some of Rick's ideas, that's a good compromise.   

To answer your questions Timko, why should Ams have to play for prizes?  Why can't they just play for a title?  You should offer prizes to Ams so that more players will come play in the tournament.  You can't argue that the number of participants was down in 2011 because it was a trophy only event.   
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: tallguy007kc on September 15, 2011, 03:53:42 PM
When I was a youngin' you played for what was offered, and ya' liked it!....of course I was walking to school uphill, both ways, and it was 20 below year round......lol   ;D

I gotta say, I'm with Timko on this one.  Granted, winning some plastic, or other goodies is cool, but really, how much plastic is enough?  Even in the world of traditional (ball) golf, ever since I can remember, Am's played/play for trophies only, and were/are d@mn happy if they won/win it. 

I should say this, they had/have schwag packs as well, but, they're pretty comperable to what is given in disc golf as well, according to entry fee's applied.

Just my .02 as well......giggity
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: David E on September 15, 2011, 04:02:05 PM
And, even if it is similar, isn't more money for payout one of the best ways to publicize the event? Isn't that why this year's worlds was billed as the first $100,000 worlds ever?

I didn't find them all, but this answers the question:
Vibram - $50k in Pro$
Worlds - $108k in Pro$
Pitt Open - $15.4k in Pro$
King of the Lake - $16.1k in Pro$
KCWO- $16.6k in Pro$
Brett H - $16.7k in Pro$
Beaver St - $#9.4k in Pro$
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: jack on September 15, 2011, 04:09:27 PM
the am vs. pro argument comes to mind.

So what underwhelmed you about the players pack?  I 've yet to be at an event and get 3 discs, 2 shirts for the $40 that was for the event.  If you can go shpping and buy those items, then ok you are better than I.  ($40=entry minus $5/ace and $5/PDGA fee).

As for the notion that you are being forced to pay $50 for the PDGA fee, its complete BS.  You either are a PDGA member or not for these events, no one is forcing you to join the PDGA, you make a choice to join the PDGA to play events.  If the Wide Open is the only PDGA event that you want to play, don't join, but help run the event in KC instead.  That argument is not part of the equation.

Rick discussed this idea last year as we came to event, and I am not opposed to it.

Our payout was completely inline with all the othere NT's. Even though the Wide Open lost money as an event this year it still paid out over 135% to the pro field.  So that argument still is confusing to me.

As to the notion of the $100,000 with the entry at $250 (thats $62.50/day) its pretty easy to get to $100,000 as you only needed 400 people to make that on the backs of the pro's alone.  We were better than that in 2009 where we gave away $83,000 and entry fee was $215 ($53.75/day) (which is $254/player) for the 327 pros, compared to 432 that played this year for the $108,160 ($250.37/player).  TO me the numbers and you how you play them can be the factors that people remember, but we got more money to the less players with over their entry fee, and then this years was about an even split based on #'s.  Also all players in KC got gifts, now we didn't all get a free pair of Keen's as they did this year, but that just a sponsorship now for Majors that Keen started after the Worlds and actually did in 2009 with the USDGC.

Its tough folks, but what options do you suggest to get more money then.  Are you willing to do the work needed to get the local sponsor on board now?  If so, we will start to create sponsor forms now to get out there, and get some limited run discs if you can convince me that we will sell them......that means buying them....
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: jack on September 15, 2011, 04:18:45 PM
ON a good note though, love to be already talking about the 30th Wide Open this way.  Even if you hate me! ;D
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: coops on September 15, 2011, 04:29:49 PM
And, even if it is similar, isn't more money for payout one of the best ways to publicize the event? Isn't that why this year's worlds was billed as the first $100,000 worlds ever?

I didn't find them all, but this answers the question:
Vibram - $50k in Pro$
Worlds - $108k in Pro$
Pitt Open - $15.4k in Pro$
King of the Lake - $16.1k in Pro$
KCWO- $16.6k in Pro$
Brett H - $16.7k in Pro$
Beaver St - $#9.4k in Pro$

So it looks like in pure $ amount we might be average, it might be the depth of the payout that has caused the grumblings in my memory.

But, it also begs the question, why be average? We should make this event like the Vibram or (1/2 a step below) Worlds. How did the USDGC get to be so prestigious? It's all about the benjamins.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: jack on September 15, 2011, 04:35:37 PM
USDGC=Innova Tourney
Vibram=Vibram Tourney

When you have a major corporation with its stamp  on it, it has deeper pocketys, this is how this happens....same with the Players Cup....(Discraft)
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: The Bird Father on September 15, 2011, 05:07:04 PM
TO me its completely silly that we gave away 3 discs, 2 shirts, a glass (still available at DGW) to every am plus got them into the ace fund, and paid the PDGA fee for $50.


Didn't we have to pay for ace fund if we wanted in? I'm pretty sure that is the way it normally works.

And, how long have we had glasses at DGW? I guess that might have been a good thing to get the word out about a little better.


he "Word" has been out since June.

I never recieved word that the rest of our pack was available either....so this statement is false.

Also pre-picked player packs ALWAYS SUCK....give the player a voucher to pick something they actually want...even if they only get 2 discs because they are more pricey...atleast I don't get another dust collector for the shelf that nobody wants to buy either.

Trophy only is just a strange concept.....let me pay an azz load of money to get a crappy players pack and a 5 in 50 chance at a trophy.

Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: The Bird Father on September 15, 2011, 05:16:55 PM
I like the stadium concept though....long drive, putting comp, live band and players party....all in the middle of Live Strong Park
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: coops on September 15, 2011, 05:22:30 PM
USDGC=Innova Tourney
Vibram=Vibram Tourney

When you have a major corporation with its stamp  on it, it has deeper pocketys, this is how this happens....same with the Players Cup....(Discraft)

Yeah, so can't we get that?

Also, I know a guy who owns a bar and grill and just got into the smoker business. I know this is a long ways off but if we needed lunch provided somewhere there'd be a good place to start.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: john theiss on September 15, 2011, 05:51:57 PM
I think Boulevard Brew is missing out not sponsoring the event.  To me i am little puzzled why they wouldn't be all over an event like this.  What a great way for them to get their name all across the country and get folks wanting to buy their beer. 

Andy worked hard getting sponsorship for the Ram-n-Salmon and we need to address that but also address the big givers.  Big companies are not  hurting like the common man  or small business.  With all the disc golfers out there in KC, we need to tap our corporate businesses.  The Wide Open sounds even better when it is listed behind any of the following companies. 

KC Masterpeice WO
Gates BBQ WO
Bass Pro WO
Boulevard Brew WO
Cabelas WO
Cerner WO
Garmin WO
Hallmark WO
Sprint Nextel WO
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: eeastwood on September 15, 2011, 05:56:25 PM
Jack, thanks for what you do.  I don't want you to think that just because I don't like how you do everything in a tournament, that I don't appreciate what it takes to run a tournament.  It's tough being in charge.  And there will always be complainers, but I'm also of the mindset that if you don't say something then those that put on events won't know how you feel.  These are just my thoughts and what I felt about the 2011 KCWO.  Take them for what they are worth. 

As far as 3 discs and 2 shirts go, I would say that it is a pretty good deal.  But right now, I'm not looking for a good deal.  I have lots of discs and lots of t-shirts.  I would prefer better quality and better selection.  If I only got 1 great disc (that I picked out) and 1 good shirt that I wore often for $40, then I would be happy. 

For the PDGA membership, it was a factor in my decision.  I know not everyone is in the same situation as I am.  I am very involved in my kids sports (coaching, etc.) and I don't have time to play in every tournament.  The KCWO actually falls on a weekend that I don't have any other commitments and it's the largest KC tournament so I definitely want to play in it.  I wasn't forced to play in the KCWO, but if I wanted to play in it I was forced to have a PDGA membership.  I personally know others that were planning on playing in the tournament until they found it was going to cost them $100 to play.  To say that it wasn't a factor, is false. 

If the trophy only issue wasn't why Ams didn't participate, then why were the numbers down in 2011?     

Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: john theiss on September 15, 2011, 06:13:34 PM
Not sure if Boulevard Brew was ever properly approached with a professional presentation, but Fat Tire has been huge in supporting bicycle races. If they sponsor bicycle races all over the world, maybe they would like to get into disc golf.  You would think being located in Ft. Collins, that they would have enough knowledge of disc golf and might be willing. It seems to me that handcrafted beer companies would be an excellent fit to be the main sponsor of our event. 

New Belgium Brewing Purpose Statement:
To operate a profitable brewery which makes our love and talent manifest.
Company Core Values and Beliefs


1.Remembering that we are incredibly lucky to create something fine that enhances people's lives while surpassing our consumers' expectations.

2.Producing world-class beers.

3.Promoting beer culture and the responsible enjoyment of beer.

4.Kindling social, environmental and cultural change as a business role model.

5.Environmental stewardship: Honoring nature at every turn of the business.

6.Cultivating potential through learning, high involvement culture, and the pursuit of opportunities.

7.Balancing the myriad needs of the company, our coworkers and their families.

8.Trusting each other and committing to authentic relationships and communications.

9.Continuous, innovative quality and efficiency improvements.

10.Having Fun.


Numbers 3, 5, and 10 are goals that would easily allign with our event.  And number 2, "producing world-class beer" with a world-class disc golf tournament has a nice ring to it as well.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: john theiss on September 15, 2011, 06:20:23 PM
check out this link to Fat Tire. if they sponsor events like this, with our cast of characters we should be a shoe in.

http://www.newbelgium.com/events/urban-assault-ride.aspx

Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: Loomis on September 15, 2011, 06:42:52 PM
I think it's important to pay as much attention to the AM side of a tournament as you do the PRO side. PRO's, on average, make up the smallest portion of the field in tournaments; so if you are focusing in more on the PRO's, you're alienating the majority of your players. If a tournament features both AM's and PRO's, and the AM side is smaller than the PRO side - that should be a red flag.

I play more PDGA tournaments than most people do and I am career AM to this point. So here are some of the things I have learned to look for when determining which tournaments to play:

1. QUALITY OF THE COURSES. - e.g. If Tulsa decides to have a tournament and I see that the AMS will not be playing Black Hawk or Hunter, I may be less inclined to play the tournament. I want to play the best courses the town/region has to offer. It's not always possible for this to happen, but I want to know that every effort is being made to get the best courses. It shows that the TD is thinking of the AM's just as much as the PRO's. For the past two years in a row, a very popular major tournament north of here wouldn't answer which courses it was going to use for its tournament and it prevented people from coming. People didn't know where to book hotels, or if the tournament was going to be worth going to. It was silly and it cost the tournament a lot of quality players.

2. PRICE - e.g. Is the cost reasonable for the experience? (Cost includes entry, fuel, lodging, food and the social cost from those back home)
     A) Player's Pack - A decent player's pack can off-set a high cost tournament. If the player's pack is advertized as "sick" or "huge" without listing any of the items, it's usually a sign that it's a lot of junk and maybe a disc. So I look for tournaments that list what you're getting on their flyer.  A player's pack on any event costing more than $45 should have at least one disc or a decent shirt. PERIOD. Stickers, bug spray, vitamin water and other such "free" items don't set my mind at ease when I'm shelling out $75.
(Local tournament player packs:
Dynamic Discs - disc or a tee shirt, or tee shirt and a towel. (traditionally)
LS Discs - Coupon for a disc and a shirt.
Columbia Disc Golf - Disc, shirt, area coupons, towel. They give you the option of upgrading to a better shirt or disc for a price, something I think is cheap in presentation.
St. Louis - At least 3 discs, shirt, towel, mini, coupons, food, and a free disc coupon from Gateway if you visit their store, stickers.
Des Moines - Pro plastic disc, a full color buzzz and a shirt, sticker.
Minnesota - Crystal disc, a shirt, a mini, water, sticker.
Joplin/Springfield - 3 discs, shirt, mini, coupons, water, sticker.
KC -wide open this year (3 discs, a shirt, stickers, towel)
     B) Player's parties - The player's party isn't a selling point with me because most of them never meet the purpose for which they were intended. The player's party should be the time when player's can commune with each other in relative comfort. Sadly, the parties are almost always in a bar, which excludes junior players and the non-bar types. A player's party is just becomes a night of going out to a bar and drinking... And not for free, so it's an extra cost. I think free meals (lunch or dinner, etc) are always a more exciting and well received idea than a player's party.
Dynamic Discs - Glass Blown - party at a bar, free visit to a food line.
LS Discs - Mighty Shunga - party at a bar/restaurant
Columbia - Mid America - Party in the park, free food.
Des Moines - First Class Challenge - party at a bar.
Minnesota - Majestic - party at the park, food costs extra.
St Louis - St Louis Open - party at the park, food is free.
Joplin/Springfield - 4 states, etc - party at the park, food is free.
AM Nationals - free breakfast, lunch and dinner every day. Player's party at a bar.
Bowling Green - player's party at a bar, one trip to food line.
     C) Travel between courses - If round one was at Olathe and round two at Pleasant Hill in the same day, I would probably skip this tournament. I know there were some issues with this at last year's AM Worlds. St. Louis has an issue with this during the St Louis Open every year. It's a long drive between their courses and it doesn't allow much time for lunch, rest or warming back up before round two. What can trump this issue is if the courses are so bad-ass that a long drive would be worth it.
     D) Pay out. It's important. PERIOD. Being cheap will cost you in the short and, more importantly, the long term. Trophies are nice, but never has the 7th place finisher out of a field of 20 received a trophy. Nor has he/she been ever been okay with it. I wonder how many PROS would sign up for a tournament if they knew the tournament was only going to pay the winner and no one else? And, if the pay out is HISTORICALLY bad - and the word of mouth is negative - don't expect the AM players to sign up. Every tournament has a positive and negative side to it, but too much negative can doom it. Players know a raw deal when the see it and stay away.

3. THE FIELD - I am not sure why more TD's haven't picked up on this yet, but they need to read the memo - Keeping the PDGA sign up sheet up to date is a HUGE deal for AM players. WHO is playing is very important. If a field looks thin in number - why would I want to go? Is it worth paying 50 bucks to play with just six players? Major tournaments have really dropped the ball on this. AMS who are close to turning PRO are looking for specific AM players to compete against who increase the level of the competition in a tournament. If I pull up the PDGA page and only see four players - who are all locals to that tournament - I'm staying away. If you can't get people to sign up early, send out emails and find out who is THINKING about signing up. Make sure the list of "possibly going to plays" are available somewhere so people can see that there is going to be SOMETHING going on at your event. I can think of two tournaments in Missouri who didn't keep their sign up sheet active and no one went because they saw it was empty. It's a major selling point.

4. COMMUNICATION - Can I get a hold of anyone involved with a tournament to get my questions answered? I played an A tier tournament where the only contact information was a phone number which no one ever answered. When we did get someone on the phone, their answer to the question of where we should go to sign in was, "Old man's house." And that was it. No instructions. No information. AND again, the major tournament up north was quiet on what was going on with the tournament and that prevented people from coming. Have accurate information, which is updated daily or at the very least, weekly. Would you be willing to travel 9 hours to a tournament if you didn't any information about it?

There are other factors which I take into consideration but these are the main ones. I shell out over a grand a year to play tournaments and I want to know my money is well spent.

The best tournament experiences are the ones where the focus is on the player's enjoyment. When the experience exceeds expectation, not falls short.

A good example of what can happen when the prize goes from good to a trophy is about to be displayed in one of Disc golf's greatest tournaments of the year.

.....

KC WIDE OPEN should always be 3 days, four rounds (swope, waterworks, blue valley, rosedale or cliff), and the level of play should be increased(like Swope Gold this year).



Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: coops on September 15, 2011, 08:37:14 PM
Very well put Loomis. Do you think that an Am and a Pro weekend would help facilitate those goals for the Am player? I know one thing that is important is having time to watch the Pros play, since they do things on an entirely different level than most of us mortals. I guess splitting the weekends risks the out of town Am not coming because they wouldn't have that opportunity unless they came back another weekend.

And to the point of Swope Gold, I wished I could've gotten to play it this year. I thought Timko and everyone else involved did an excellent job assuring quality and fairness. The one cautionary note is that some of the pros I was in proximity to at the event were bemoaning some of the created OB. Of course, make a course hard enough and people complain, but, sometimes they could be right. I think it would be worth investigating having a world class designer or consultant (like a Harold Duvall or John Houck) examine the proposed layouts. I know that money doesn't need to be spent there but if you, for example, get Duvall involved both as a major sponsor and integral designer it may be easy enough to convince him of the advantage of assuring the highest quality of play is attained. Another option is reaching out to the top pros would would be playing, the Jenkins, Doss, Feldberg, Climo, et al and getting them to test designs or help tweak designs. They do things with discs most can't imagine and having that kind of input would be invaluable.

That being said, we should of course not lose the local feel. Nobody knows Swope better than Timko and he does a great job making sure that course is in ship shape for the event. No matter how much help we have in making sure the courses are demanding we would likely still need a local in charge.

BV is one course that could definitely benefit from the occasional artificial OB line.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: coops on September 15, 2011, 08:42:20 PM
I too think that Boulevard is really missing out not being a major sponsor of this event, or even sponsoring the players party! (Seriously, their facilities are excellent, and what a better way to get more people to know their brand).

But, for all intents and purposes, New Belgium makes better beer and seems more willing to reach out and sponsor events, even those far from Ft. Collins.

In any case, we should definitely look into approaching sponsors as early as possible. Though it is a long time coming for all of us involved it shows that the event is serious and a worthwhile investment to begin attaining sponsorship, or reaching out to sponsors, as early as possible.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: Ken Franks on September 15, 2011, 11:18:54 PM
Everytime I read this thread name, I think, Why the hell you wanna think, ME?!?!
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: Loomis on September 15, 2011, 11:58:29 PM
If the flyer for the KC wide open reads:
Men ADV -  60 (or 75) bucks.
2 discs, tee shirt and free lunch each day.
Player's party is a pig roast at SWOPE (or WATERWORKS).
A final nine for the top four players.
A speical trophy for first place.
Pay out for the top half (or third) of the field.

The courses to be played are the Gold settings of Waterworks, Swope, Rosedale and Cliff (or Blue Valley).

Contact information... .... ....
Best hotel values in the area are... .... ...

That's a tournament that I want to play in Kansas City. Or anywhere.

Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: tallguy007kc on September 16, 2011, 11:34:04 AM
Not sure if Boulevard Brew was ever properly approached with a professional presentation, but Fat Tire has been huge in supporting bicycle races. If they sponsor bicycle races all over the world, maybe they would like to get into disc golf.  You would think being located in Ft. Collins, that they would have enough knowledge of disc golf and might be willing. It seems to me that handcrafted beer companies would be an excellent fit to be the main sponsor of our event. 


I can say for sure that New Belgium/Fat Tire was a pretty big sponsor for The Memorial earlier this year, as they had multiple type discs with their stamp on them.  I'm sure they did other things as well, but, would have to do some serious memory jog to remember everything they did for the tourney.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: john theiss on September 16, 2011, 12:00:44 PM
I have been notified that most of the companies that i listed as future sponsors had been contacted in the past and  i assumed that they had been. In addition, several companies were approached with professional presentations which is easy to believe since we have had  successful events and  due to our amazing volunteers. We have  a great group of involved golfers here in KC and so  many of you  have great relationships and contacts.  However, that was just a list to get players thinking about their place of employment or to get them thinking about where their friends work. There are a ton of disc golfers out there that might want to get involved in take part in the historic 30 KCWO.  So many folks are new to the game or do not even know about our club or our events.

The  Think Tank is a place to get chatter going from all disc golfers of  all abilities.  A place for pros,cons, wishes and all ideas are welcome.   Please keep posting your comments. Thanks  Loomis for sharing your  great insight.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: phisherman_77 on September 16, 2011, 12:43:50 PM
Let me see what Saint Luke's things about disc golf.  Anyone wanna come and do a pitch with me?
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: jack on September 16, 2011, 02:05:15 PM
If the flyer for the KC wide open reads:
That's a tournament that I want to play in Kansas City. Or anywhere.

Thanks Loomis.  I like this type of information.  I appreciate it. 
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: David E on September 16, 2011, 03:58:15 PM
Something to consider is it's 2012 budget time for a lot of these companies, in fact budgets may be done?
If we are looking for a big time sponsor, start presenting now, not in February or March!

Also, has the KC Sports Commission ever been approached? With the recent death of Kevin Grey I'm not sure what the status is there, but perhaps they could help?

How about the KC Convention and Visitors Bureau as well?
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: jack on September 16, 2011, 04:40:04 PM
The KCMO convention and tourism is a big proponent of ours, but they don't "sponsor" in terms of dollars.  In fact they won't even send requests or give lists to help.

KC Sports Commission has been approached in the past as well, they haven't had deep pockets so it hasn't been as good as I'd like, but this also hasn't been met with the enthusiasm as I would like.  Our conversations ended up having the KCFDC join the commission, in hopes of being able to reach potential sponsors, so they actually got out of us more than we got out of them at the time.  THe best thing that came from that though was our relationship with Women's side of the commission, and helped in many years with clinics to promote the sport in the WIN KC programs.

You are absolutely correct in the timing of presentations though.  This conversation was started by the BoD because I was asking for a logo for the event to start to publicize.

I would like to see KC have a logo that defies time and we can use every year, and then every year we continue to have a new logo for the event, but we also have a logo that is timeless in nature that convey's the history of disc golf in KC over the last 30 yrs, and remains true so that at every event as it ends we have a limited run of the new plastic du'jour with that to start raising money for next year.

I was really ticked off at worlds with the Memorial already selling plastic for next year, as we seem to always be reactionary at times to it.

I understand that the Memorial is the first warm weather event, and its really Discraft's baby event to start off, but why couldn't we be that way, and why aren't we?

Some good thoughts in here for certain, some thoughts I don't agree with, but good thoughts all around, keep them coming.  If you know a good artist, I am sure that we can find some funds to make it a paid deal to get  a logo that is timeless, and every year they're logo will be a hit!
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: savagesam on September 16, 2011, 07:56:24 PM
A Tournament should be run with everyone in mind. From the top player to the beginner. The experience for each should be the same. I don't play many tourneys. Yet I have heard (as mentioned by Loomis) that "Courses" were the reason some of my friends elected to bypass the KCWO in the past. A Tournament should be run as a business. Take a restaurant. The best deliver quality food, service and atmosphere time and time again. Regardless of the stature or income of the customer. Yet we have been to many restaurants that look promising and fail to deliver on one or all accounts. Bottom line, deliver a great product and people will come. Dilute the product and people will know and stay away. That starts from when the sun rises till it sets. Think of your favorite tournaments and what is it you like most? Quality of courses? Player pacts? Activities before and after play? They should all be there. Why is a can't miss tournament can't miss? You guys have been to many tournaments! Use those experiences to influence how you run yours. Make sure you check every box as far as quality and it will grow. Cap the amount of players if quality of the courses is an issue. Never compromise the product to be "Bigger". It will be interesting to watch GBO next year as a few folks I know will be bypassing it based on how they want to grow. 3 days, 3 rounds and tee times. Could be brilliant or not. Time will tell. I was dissappointed this past year that my group did not play Jones East (my favorite). Will that in fluence my decision to play next year? You betcha! They may get bigger next year but I think more folks will realize that the product is diluted and may think twice about attending. Just my opinion. DD does a great job of running tournaments but bigger does not necessarily mean better. Think outside the box. Maybe give players a choice of courses to play (till they fill) and place them in divisions based on that. Yeah complicated I know. But please your customer and they will return.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: coops on September 16, 2011, 08:19:43 PM
Yes, it is wrong to not let Ams play the premier courses, but it is more wrong to not let the Pros play them. (Though many of the premier courses are not correct, based on skill level, for Ams to play.)

I think that the best way to make sure that Ams and Pros are equally taken care of is to host separate events. Sure at smaller events there is the capability to cater to each, but in the largest events that becomes difficult at best.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: gleauzinier on September 19, 2011, 12:19:28 PM
Not sure if Boulevard Brew was ever properly approached with a professional presentation, but Fat Tire has been huge in supporting bicycle races. If they sponsor bicycle races all over the world, maybe they would like to get into disc golf.  You would think being located in Ft. Collins, that they would have enough knowledge of disc golf and might be willing. It seems to me that handcrafted beer companies would be an excellent fit to be the main sponsor of our event. 



the folks I know at boulevard say they would donate beer before $, kinda of the way they do it. years ago we had donated beer, and with the proper permits, sold it at swope during the tournament and made a pant load. the big savior of the first wide open was the local distributor of bud light, they came up with money and beer for the player party. hell, we had kegs left over and the finals were almost curtailed and I almost went to jail over some barney fife goober at shawnee mission park watching people breaking into my van and filling up bud cups.

as far as the new belgium folks, they used to give us bicycles to raffle, I've gotten swag from them like hats, discs, glasses, etc. what happened to that connection? it would be nice to have a handcrafted beer company sponsor us but how many disc golfers actually buy their products? I see mostly coolers and trash cans full of domestic beers, I would wager craft brew drinkers are in the minority around here.
Everytime I read this thread name, I think, Why the hell you wanna think, ME?!?!
                EXACTLY!
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: Ken Franks on September 19, 2011, 07:11:07 PM
New Belgium is wonderful to work with as potential sponsor. They really stepped up to the plate and donated to the Old Pike Cookie Cutter Classic, with 3 kegs of their nectar. Jack knows Adam, the New Belgium Beer Ranger for Kansas City, and they are more than knowledgeable about disc golf. They were the title sponsor for the World Championships in 2003 in Flagstaff, amongst many other contributions.

 Not sure, how comfortable they are w/ also handing over monetary sponsorships, but It wouldn't hurt to ask!
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: aarong on September 19, 2011, 09:14:24 PM
I know about 20 ams up here in michigan that did not wanna play wide open due to trophy only. I'm not sure what's going on in KC but Larry Labond (08 world's TD) tourney's in michigan have been far better in one year than KC tourneys were in 3 yrs I played there, except for Loomis' olathe open. I know you probably don't care if 20 michiganders come down there, but that's just what I can add in this convo. I along with a lot of ams aren't set on trophy only. And I know I've said this before but I "won" a trophy at 09 city of fountains that I have yet to receive. So what would make me ever wanna play a "trophy only" tourney again? I heard horrible things about Jack Lowe tourney's but still gave em a shot. Poorly ran tourneys news will spread throughout the USA!! Loomis and Larry Labond for President!!! Come play Michigan, you won't be disappointed!!! Well, at the right TD tourneys! :)
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: Ken Franks on September 20, 2011, 09:06:23 AM
I have never played in an Amateur division, I played my first ever tourney in 2003 as an Open player and have never looked back.

  That being said, I think "Trophy only" divisions for Am's are bunk too!!

 Give them plastic and help support disc golf companies...
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: aarong on September 20, 2011, 10:45:06 AM
Yeah, what TANK said!
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: HaterAde on September 20, 2011, 12:10:22 PM
I heard horrible things about Jack Lowe tourney's...

Like what?
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: John Chapman on September 20, 2011, 01:40:21 PM
2. BIGGER PAYOUT for Pros. As far as I understand it that has been the knock against the KCWO for a while. To get people to come to this event there needs to be a way to make travel money back and the way to do that is to beef up payout (obviously easier said than done, maybe a title sponsor?). Along with maintaining NT status this will keep the event as prestigious as it needs to be.

I have NEVER heard that about KC, the only payout complaints have been on the AM side, where did you come up (hear, perception from others etc....curious) with this idea?

I had heard this from a few pros in the past, but not for several years. Their argument at the time was that the winner got less than in other tournaments, until I pointed out that we actually paid out more, but the distribution was flatter and deeper. Since that time, the rest of the DG world has come around to our way of thinking, and what we have been doing all along is now commonplace.

Chap
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: twoDornottwoD on September 20, 2011, 01:43:03 PM
That being said, I think "Trophy only" divisions for Am's are bunk too!!

 Give them plastic and help support disc golf companies...

You miss understand the concept of trophy only tournaments.  I think they support the disc golf companies even more.  They get their products in the hands of all the competitors instead of just the top few.  The number of discs given out are the same.  The winners' plastic is spread into the players packs so that everyone gets their money's worth.  It helps to nullify the bagger problem in this sport.  The top ams keep winning plastic instead of moving up, and this habit filters down into the lower am divisions.  There are many reasons, good and bad, for why people don't move up, including ever-rising pro fees.  The continual am winners/cashers have more plastic than they can throw and end up moving the plastic on ebay for cash or collecting dust in the basement.  the word amateur is derived from doing an activity "for the love of".  I strongly support the trophy only trend because the baggers aren't making anything off their fellow competitors' backs.  they can stay down for financial reasons, competitive balance, or bragging rights, but they can't stay down as a cash grab.  its the way amateur events in any event are supposed to theoretically operate.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: gleauzinier on September 20, 2011, 01:45:56 PM
I honestly forget, what was in my kcwo pro player packet that cost me $150 with no guarantee of anything more than words of encouragement and a hearty handclasp from john theiss, volunteer of the year?
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: John Chapman on September 20, 2011, 01:55:34 PM
I know about 20 ams up here in michigan that did not wanna play wide open due to trophy only. I'm not sure what's going on in KC but Larry Labond (08 world's TD) tourney's in michigan have been far better in one year than KC tourneys were in 3 yrs I played there, except for Loomis' olathe open. I know you probably don't care if 20 michiganders come down there, but that's just what I can add in this convo. I along with a lot of ams aren't set on trophy only. And I know I've said this before but I "won" a trophy at 09 city of fountains that I have yet to receive. So what would make me ever wanna play a "trophy only" tourney again? I heard horrible things about Jack Lowe tourney's but still gave em a shot. Poorly ran tourneys news will spread throughout the USA!! Loomis and Larry Labond for President!!! Come play Michigan, you won't be disappointed!!! Well, at the right TD tourneys! :)

No arguments against Larry, he ran a decent Worlds, and I've never been to any other event of his. Michigan ams won't come to the Wide Open as long the Great Lakes Amateur Championship, I mean USADGC ( a good event, not bashing it, but it's pretty much a regional event with a few people from outside a Great Lakes State) is on the same weekend. Frankly, there aren't many people from here that are going to travel to Michigan, either, and it's really more a function of distance form the event. Why would I travel 8-10 hours to Michigan when I have a great tourney less than 3 hours away in KC, Columbia, Des Moines, Emporia, Omaha, Lincoln, etc.... Michigan has so many events that they don't really need to leave the state ever.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: twoDornottwoD on September 20, 2011, 02:02:06 PM
I honestly forget, what was in my kcwo pro player packet that cost me $150 with no guarantee of anything more than words of encouragement and a hearty handclasp from john theiss, volunteer of the year?

sorry mo.  i meant to say "all the ams" not "all the competitors".
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: jamidanger on September 20, 2011, 02:05:47 PM
my major complaint was the mpg entry fee. i like the deep plastic payout for the ams. i also like the 5 round format, with a cut for the semis and finals.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: ekolk on September 20, 2011, 02:12:56 PM
Trophy only is a load of crap. Sorry as an Am player, I see trophy and think "What the hell am I paying for? A player's pack? Is this some of that "everybody's a winner" crap. Sorry entitlement generation, but it stinks. And it does nothing to promote sportsmanship.

If the 30th Wide Open goes trophy only, I gotta wonder about leadership and where the priorities are.

Ams need to play at least four rounds, too. There is a huge competitive and athletic advantage to the fourth round. If you are out of shape and can't hold it together over four rounds, then you will lose. Please support your Ams all over the world, many of them will be the next Pros.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: dickthediscparker on September 20, 2011, 02:24:14 PM
Please support your Ams all over the world, many of them will be the next Pros.

lol
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: gleauzinier on September 20, 2011, 02:25:36 PM

sorry mo.  i meant to say "all the ams" not "all the competitors".
we're cool drew.
while I couldn't help throwing some gas on the fire what was the tangible pro pp stuff? I know it's apples and passion fruit but it's also a roll of the dice for some of us pros, not knowing which of your multiple personalities is going to show up for the round that day.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: CRAMNATION7 on September 20, 2011, 02:30:45 PM
Trophy only is a load of crap. Sorry as an Am player, I see trophy and think "What the hell am I paying for? A player's pack? Is this some of that "everybody's a winner" crap. Sorry entitlement generation, but it stinks. And it does nothing to promote sportsmanship.

If the 30th Wide Open goes trophy only, I gotta wonder about leadership and where the priorities are.

Ams need to play at least four rounds, too. There is a huge competitive and athletic advantage to the fourth round. If you are out of shape and can't hold it together over four rounds, then you will lose. Please support your Ams all over the world, many of them will be the next Pros.


i totally agree, turn out will be small in ams again if its trophy only.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: HaterAde on September 20, 2011, 02:41:16 PM
Having never played a big event like the WO, I was wondering what sorts of prizes get rewarded to Ams when the event is not "trophy only"? Are we talking about additional schwag like baskets or disc bags, etc?
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: twoDornottwoD on September 20, 2011, 03:17:17 PM
Is this some of that "everybody's a winner" crap. Sorry entitlement generation, but it stinks. And it does nothing to promote sportsmanship.

i hate the entitlement generation and the "everybody's a winner" crap too but they're not giving everyone a trophy, just the people who place.  trophy only gives everyone something for their hard earned entry money, not for winning something they didn't deserve.  those that win, get the trophies and titles. 

If the 30th Wide Open goes trophy only, I gotta wonder about leadership and where the priorities are.

i wonder where your priorities are to question the leadership of volunteers who sacrifice their time away from their families for a sport they love and are trying to help.  i understand there are valid arguments for and against trophy only but this statement is rude and idiotic.  do you spit in the salvation army cup too because the bell hurts your ears or interrupts your cell phone call?  give me a break.

Ams need to play at least four rounds, too. There is a huge competitive and athletic advantage to the fourth round. If you are out of shape and can't hold it together over four rounds, then you will lose.

agree completely.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: twoDornottwoD on September 20, 2011, 03:39:58 PM
Trophy only is just a strange concept.....let me pay an azz load of money to get a crappy players pack and a 5 in 50 chance at a trophy.

players pack is the key.  trophy only events have to make the difference up there.  i'm okay with as loomis said, giving the 7th place person a trophy in a 20 person field.  25%-40% of the field should get trophies. 

..though i must say andy, it's not "chance" when you have some control over the outcome.  you just gotta get that ol' one finger performing a little better.  :P
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: coops on September 20, 2011, 05:06:09 PM
I know about 20 ams up here in michigan that did not wanna play wide open due to trophy only. I'm not sure what's going on in KC but Larry Labond (08 world's TD) tourney's in michigan have been far better in one year than KC tourneys were in 3 yrs I played there, except for Loomis' olathe open. I know you probably don't care if 20 michiganders come down there, but that's just what I can add in this convo. I along with a lot of ams aren't set on trophy only. And I know I've said this before but I "won" a trophy at 09 city of fountains that I have yet to receive. So what would make me ever wanna play a "trophy only" tourney again? I heard horrible things about Jack Lowe tourney's but still gave em a shot. Poorly ran tourneys news will spread throughout the USA!! Loomis and Larry Labond for President!!! Come play Michigan, you won't be disappointed!!! Well, at the right TD tourneys! :)

That Loomis run tournament was one of the best I've ever played, he did a great job getting that all together.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: aarong on September 20, 2011, 07:31:13 PM
Well said Chappy! That about sums it all up. I guess all the ams do stay up here for usadgc. You wanna talk about a bagger state, geez michigan. Everyone up here stays am because they wanna win usadgc! With this tourney being in our back yard. And you always see the same pros winning because not a lot of pros leave michigan. It is nice having a tournament 1.5 hrs away from me EVERY weekend. And haterade, if you ask around about jack lowe tourneys I'm sure you'll hear all about em.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: Loomis on September 20, 2011, 08:46:55 PM
Thank you for the compliments. The Olathe open was a lot of fun to do. However, it should say something that it was the ONLY tournament that I have run. It was a lot of work - most of which goes unnoticed and unappreciated. I needed a lot of help and I was lucky that there were people willing to do so. So, thank you, but it was very much a group effort. I will say "thank you" on behalf of all those faceless souls who made me look so good that day.

That said, I want to challenge everyone on this forum to run at least one tournament. It says something to your credibility that you would be willing to sacrifice yourself for the sake of the sport. It will give you a great deal of insight into just how much work it is. Just the paperwork from the PDGA alone is a monster pain in the ass. So is contacting a million different entities trying to coordinate a tournament at a fixed space in time. It's easier to pick up rice with chopsticks using just your toes. So, we should restrain from giving deep criticisms of willing TD's until we have put our own butts on the line first. Then feel free to lambast them with all the vitriol you can muster.

He without sin, cast the first stone.

Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: HaterAde on September 20, 2011, 08:54:01 PM
And haterade, if you ask around about jack lowe tourneys I'm sure you'll hear all about em.

Uh, yeah, I just did "ask around" about Jack Lowe tourneys. I asked you about them in direct response to your post. So what is your problem with Jack's events? Perhaps if you let your issue(s) be known, those issues may have a chance to be addressed in future tournaments.

Jack's done a lot for disc golf and has a vast amount of travel experience within the sport as well. If you're going to object to how he runs events, the least you could do is provide an explanation.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: aarong on September 20, 2011, 09:12:50 PM
Hahaha haterade, you're funny.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: HaterAde on September 20, 2011, 09:34:43 PM
Hahaha haterade, you're funny.

Maybe so, but you sounded pretty serious when you badmouthed Jack's events. Just genuinely curious as to what may have prompted you to do so.

On a sidenote, I'm glad you're enjoying Michigan. I thought the courses there were great, but found the overall disc golf scene is much more alive here in KC.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: gleauzinier on September 20, 2011, 09:56:08 PM
again, the question: why don't one of you very capable, confident ams find a sponsor that provides the prizes/equivalent for the amateur competitors? you want it go out and help get it.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: aarong on September 20, 2011, 10:10:04 PM
I won a jack lowe tourney in am1 once and got 8 kc kash, and was supposed to get a "trophy" disc. That was oct 09 and still haven't gotten a trophy disc. I don't care about it now. But why would I play a jack lowe trophy only tourney now. I'm sure I'll play another one of jacks tourneys, but now I won't expect anything from it. I think other than the KC wide open that kansas city disc golf caters more to the recreation side of disc golfing and not as much to the sanctioning side. Which is ok, but people like certain TD's more than others and certain tourneys more than others. I like jack lowe tourneys, but I'll just have to keep in mind the am payout will be crappy :) ...my thoughts and opinions... And michigan clubs are just as alive as KC... even more so in the winter. These guys are crazy up here.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: Loomis on September 20, 2011, 10:13:18 PM
I think an appropriate am prize would be... Discs.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: robm on September 20, 2011, 10:13:39 PM
First post ever for me on KCFDC....

Maybe you're interested in a Newb's point of view, maybe not.  WO was the second only tournament I went to watch.  The first being 2011 Glass Blown Open.  I specifically went to watch the top players, Jenkins, Locastro, etc.  First, I was really surprised about how few spectators there were.  I was expecting 1000+, was there 300?, 400?  I would not believe there was 500 if you told me.  I'm not sure.  I make this point, because if you are looking for sponsors, 500 people really isn't that much, really.  Sponsorship is advertisement, need spectator #'s up.  However, I was totally stoked that I got a free Vibram putter (I use it almost every round I play), after another spectator told me about it.  Now well publicized.

As far as Fat Tire, Boulevard, etc.  I've brewed my own beer for over 20 years.  Blvd is good beer.  However, Tall Grass is also VERY GOOD BEER.  I think Jeff (main brewer at TG), would be interested in events such as this.

Cost?  I've only played KS Sunflower Games, Topeka Ace Race so far.  Cost vs. benefit is HUGE for me as a family of 4.  I signed up today for the Rosedale Am Champ because cost was below $35 and I new exactly what I was going to get as a player's pack.  Ideally, I want more back than what I paid (discs, shirts, etc.).  I also want more back of useful stuff than what I paid.  Vouchers are totally cool.  Give me a choice of a disc or two, or $X towards disc (because I actually like DX plastic) and I would be really happy.  I want to play WO next year, but if cost is over $65 (besides PDGA membership), probably won't happen.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: HaterAde on September 20, 2011, 10:44:56 PM
Thanks for clarifying, Aaron. I don't know the circumstances as to why things didn't work out right at the event you played, but knowing Jack, it probably wasn't due to lack of effort.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: aarong on September 20, 2011, 11:04:35 PM
I don't want to come off as bitter because I really don't care now about that past tourney. Everyone has different reasons for playing and not playing certain tourneys and you can't make everyone happy at every tourney. I prefer non trophy tourneys.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: John Chapman on September 21, 2011, 09:18:19 AM
(
I don't want to come off as bitter because I really don't care now about that past tourney. Everyone has different reasons for playing and not playing certain tourneys and you can't make everyone happy at every tourney. I prefer non trophy tourneys.

It's really instructive to express these sorts of things directly to the TD ASAP after the event. As Jack will tell you, the only way to offend Jack is to think that you CAN offend Jack, so any feedback is crucial, and it helps improves future events. Also, TDs do sometimes make mistakes and forget things, so it's possible Jack has no idea that a trophy disc was due you, and had he known, he would have dealt with it immediately. Aaron, I think most your criticisms are valid, but as far as the "crappy" payout, usually ams are paid back over 100% at a Jack Lowe event, but he has strived to keep Am entry fees lower at his events in the recent past, so that may or may not account for the apparent reduction in prizes. (And I'm not lumping the 2011 KCWO into this discussion, since it was trophy-only.) I'd like to know what the event you're complaining about is, so I can put it in the proper context. If you're comparing the am payout at the Mighty Mo to the GLO, that's not a fair comparison. If you're comparing it to a C-Tier with the same entry fees, then that WOULD be a fair comaprison.

As far as trophy-only goes, I don't think it's the reason for the low-turnout. I think the main reason is only getting to play 3 rounds. Dan Cashen tried this once back around 2006 or 2007, and the Am field suffered because of it. When you see the pros geting to play 4 or 5 rounds, and you only get to play 3, you feel a little bit jilted. That being said, I've always thought that the best combo of prizes was not trophy-only or prizes only (no players pack), but some sort of combo of both. There's nothing like finishing 20th out 50 in an amateur field and getting to say "I 'cashed' ". The fact that that prize is likely one DX plastic Eagle is not the point. It's more of a self-sense of accomplishment. We aren't giving trophies out that deep, I wouldn't think, so I think you lose some of that feeling in trophy-only. However, getting a cool player pack with cool stuff is very nice as well. I think maybe we need to brainstorm ideas to make the player pack more enticing for ams...what kind of stuff do you think is cool that you will actually use?
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: ajinks on September 21, 2011, 09:37:04 AM
At a BIG event and if there are BIG pros there, I would rather play one less round and watch the pro's play their final round or final 9.  I was more than bummed at the 28th WO when we weren't going to get to watch the Pro's play at all after driving several hours to play in the tourney.  I also think there should be a clear divide between AM & Pro divisions with the # of rounds played, to provide more incentive to play up.  Don't try and man-up an AM format and then act all tough because you completed the 4th round better than lesser Am's.  That's just being silly, you're an AM, you ain't tough...

As for the players pack, I would think a minimum includes a disc and shirt or something along those lines.  If ya gotta skim from the entry fee to make that happen, that's cool.  But don't take $15 out of my entry fee for a disc that costs $6.  The prices of tourney stamped discs are available to everyone so that's just dumb and shady to me.  If you can do more in the players pack, great, but don't do it at the expense of an average payout. 
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: aarong on September 21, 2011, 10:17:34 AM
09 city of fountains. I payed 23$ got a nice shirt for the players pack. I think there were 6 or 7 in am1. I won, got 8 kckash and no trophy. I'm comparing that to 2010 kalamazoo championship. I payed 25$ including ace fund and got a nice disc. Although I didn't win, Larry Labond paid first place 60 and second place 40 and only 5 played. I'm sure there is a whole bunch of factors thrown in there to set apart TD's that I don't know, so that's why I don't really care, because there is probably a bigger picture that I'm missing. I'll definitely be coming back for the wide open when I don't play usadgc or if they're on different weekends. I wish I could afford to play wide open pro field, but donating 160$ to feldberg and nikko just doesn't sound that fun or reasonable to me after travel money and junk. And like I said I'm sure there are different factors that seperate TD's and maybe those 2 tourneys aren't the best to compare each other to but that's the kind of stuff that stands out to players over time. And of course my experience is way worse than others I'm sure. Cause I bet at the wide open the trophy's are already made and ordered and sitting at the scorers table and you don't have to wait on em. 
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: Tom on September 21, 2011, 12:18:53 PM
Trophys sit around and gather dust and get in the way, and can even be dangerous. I'd rather be able to pick out merchandise from a large selection at the tourney, or get a voucher that you can redeem on-line or at a Disc Golf retail store like Disc Golf World.

If it's tophy only, I'd rather pay even less and not get a players pack at all, especially if it's pre-defined.

I think the 30th should start on Friday for everyone. Two rounds Friday, two rounds Saturday, and one round Sunday morning, with a final nine for the top pro men and women Sunday early afternoon.

I like the idea of having food and drink (player's party) at one of the courses immediately after the finish of Friday's rounds. That way, any leftover keg action could be offered after Saturday's round. There could be a distance competition and maybe a putting contest at the players party too.

I like the idea of playing the same course twice on Friday, and another course twice on Saturday, and maybe the course you played Friday being your Sunday morning round location.

I think Blue Valley is the best location in town for tournament central and the final nine too. Swope isn't bad either. Rosey works too, and is perhaps more central to the metro.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: jamison99 on September 21, 2011, 12:32:14 PM
Having an Advanced Final 9 as well would be good.  Alot of other tourneys do this, and it gives you a chance to showcase some up and coming talent. 
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: dickthediscparker on September 21, 2011, 02:58:00 PM
Having an Advanced Final 9 as well would be good.  Alot of other tourneys do this, and it gives you a chance to showcase some up and coming talent. 

lol
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: coops on September 21, 2011, 08:39:32 PM
09 city of fountains. I payed 23$ got a nice shirt for the players pack. I think there were 6 or 7 in am1. I won, got 8 kckash and no trophy. I'm comparing that to 2010 kalamazoo championship. I payed 25$ including ace fund and got a nice disc. Although I didn't win, Larry Labond paid first place 60 and second place 40 and only 5 played. I'm sure there is a whole bunch of factors thrown in there to set apart TD's that I don't know, so that's why I don't really care, because there is probably a bigger picture that I'm missing. I'll definitely be coming back for the wide open when I don't play usadgc or if they're on different weekends. I wish I could afford to play wide open pro field, but donating 160$ to feldberg and nikko just doesn't sound that fun or reasonable to me after travel money and junk. And like I said I'm sure there are different factors that seperate TD's and maybe those 2 tourneys aren't the best to compare each other to but that's the kind of stuff that stands out to players over time. And of course my experience is way worse than others I'm sure. Cause I bet at the wide open the trophy's are already made and ordered and sitting at the scorers table and you don't have to wait on em.

In comparison, I won Loomis's Olathe event the next day (granted it was a larger field, 15 or so) but I cashed over $100 in merch.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: John Chapman on September 21, 2011, 09:23:11 PM
09 city of fountains. I payed 23$ got a nice shirt for the players pack. I think there were 6 or 7 in am1. I won, got 8 kckash and no trophy. I'm comparing that to 2010 kalamazoo championship. I payed 25$ including ace fund and got a nice disc. Although I didn't win, Larry Labond paid first place 60 and second place 40 and only 5 played. I'm sure there is a whole bunch of factors thrown in there to set apart TD's that I don't know, so that's why I don't really care, because there is probably a bigger picture that I'm missing. I'll definitely be coming back for the wide open when I don't play usadgc or if they're on different weekends. I wish I could afford to play wide open pro field, but donating 160$ to feldberg and nikko just doesn't sound that fun or reasonable to me after travel money and junk. And like I said I'm sure there are different factors that seperate TD's and maybe those 2 tourneys aren't the best to compare each other to but that's the kind of stuff that stands out to players over time. And of course my experience is way worse than others I'm sure. Cause I bet at the wide open the trophy's are already made and ordered and sitting at the scorers table and you don't have to wait on em.

Again, this something you need to tell Jack (and I'm sure he'll read this), but that doesn't sound right to me on the surface. I'm almost sure a mistake was made there, but I could be wrong.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: John Chapman on September 21, 2011, 09:34:22 PM
At a BIG event and if there are BIG pros there, I would rather play one less round and watch the pro's play their final round or final 9.  I was more than bummed at the 28th WO when we weren't going to get to watch the Pro's play at all after driving several hours to play in the tourney.  I also think there should be a clear divide between AM & Pro divisions with the # of rounds played, to provide more incentive to play up.  Don't try and man-up an AM format and then act all tough because you completed the 4th round better than lesser Am's.  That's just being silly, you're an AM, you ain't tough...

As for the players pack, I would think a minimum includes a disc and shirt or something along those lines.  If ya gotta skim from the entry fee to make that happen, that's cool.  But don't take $15 out of my entry fee for a disc that costs $6.  The prices of tourney stamped discs are available to everyone so that's just dumb and shady to me.  If you can do more in the players pack, great, but don't do it at the expense of an average payout.

There are many people who share your views, but the actual numbers play out that when Ams only get to play 3 rounds in the Wide Open, they don't show up as much for the event. There are ways to get out to see the pros (early Sunday getaway round, with 5 rounds total in a 3-day event), that don't involve cutting the number of rounds. Not sure about what you by "manning up", but it's always appropriate for players to play in a division that suits their relative skill level. I can (and have) played Open in several tourneys, including the Wide Open and Worlds over the years. I enjoyed the experience but pretty much got my clock cleaned every time, and that was 20 years ago when I could throw pretty well (time and back surgery have reduced into a weenie arm that is also a former great putter). The point is, people should play in whatever division fits their skill level and makes the experience more fun for them. I have played Advanced or Intermediate instead of Advanced Masters if I liked the course setup for those divisions better at an event.

Keep those ideas coming....there's a lot of good ones.

As far as discs go, retail price is always always fair value for discs in the player package. If you'd pay $15 for a disc at DGW at regular price, valuing it at $15 for a players package is very fair.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: Rick Rothstein on September 22, 2011, 06:32:48 PM
Some good ideas out here and some others too. Through the years, we’ve had professional presentations and have sought significant sponsorship from some of the companies in town that have "deep pockets."  These companies did not get those pockets deepened by making bad investments. The bottom line is that disc golf in general, and the KCWO in particular, have very little to offer these companies in terms of exposure. Sponsors want to either sell their products or have as many eyes on their logos or ads as possible. 300 tournament players is not enough. Getting 1000 spectators out for a final round is probably not enough either, but it’s a beginning.
 
As no one has really scored a home run asking for $5000 or $10000, Wide Opens have gone for smaller sponsors, as it is easier to get $100 or $300 from more people and businesses than it is to get a big wad of cash from a large corporation. We have occasionally scored sponsors in the $500 to $1000 range, but these have not been common

Also, we have had relationships that produced beer and other products from both Boulevard, New Belgium, and others. Jack and I had cordial discussions with the sponsorship director at Boulevard for Worlds, but it's not their corporate policy to sponsor events with money. Their perceptive sponsorship guy did point out that he thought that it was pretty natural for players in alternate sports to be attracted to craft (can we call them alternative) beers.

Here’s a rough proposal that has not been vetted by anyone, nor have I done a budget or created time lines. Time lines are critical for the success of a multiple-course event. Having a final 9 can be a great experience, buy it really needs to start within 10-15 minutes of the posted time. (Digression on: Speaking of final nines, I'll never forget when Stokely aced #2 short at Swope and took the lead over Climo, only to squander it and losing in a 3-hole playoff. The atmosphere following that ace was electric. Another final 9 highlight was in 2003 when Ruth Steele was the only person in the group of 4 open and 3 women to park Swope #3 (by parking lot) that had been tightened considerably with OB/gallery rope on both sides of the fairway. End of digression.) Of course, bad weather can screw everything up. As mentioned, no numbers have been run yet, but I think if we could raise at least $12K, we could add some good cash to the pros, have a kick-ass party, provide a few more amenities, and produce a tournament to remember. 

This proposal has all pros and all advanced divisions playing 3 days (at least 4 rounds) and other am divisions playing 3 rounds in two days. It includes a final 9 for the top 4 pro men and top 3 pro women playing in one group. We’d want to build on what we had last year with more disc vendors, food and beverage vendors, music and more activities to induce more spectators to attend.

Net Entry Fees and Targeted Fields
Men’s Open Division – Pool A: $110, 72 players 
Other Pro Divisions – Pool B: $75, 72 players (12 women, 36 masters, 16 gm, 8 sgm)
Advanced Division Pool C: $75 (play for prizes, small players package) (36 men, 8 women, 24 masters, 4 gm)
Intermediate/Rec/Novice Pool C: $50 (trophy only, extensive players package)

Courses: Blue Valley (BV), Swope Gold (SG), Rosedale (R), Water Works (W), Cliff Drive (C)

Rounds
Pros play 4 rounds and showcase final 9 featuring 4 men and 3 women in 3 days

Advanced plays 4 (or 5) rounds in three days

Other ams play 3 round in two days

Schedule
Friday
Pool A Rd 1: R
Pool A Rd 2: W
Pool B Rd 1: BV (staggered start)
Pool C Rd 1: W
Pool C Rd 2: R

Saturday
Pool A Rd 3: BV (staggered start)
Pool B Rd 2: SG (shotgun start in morning)
Pool B Rd 3: RD
Pool C Rd 3: SG  (shotgun start after pool B is done) (Could play CD in the morning for 5 rounds)
Pool D Rd 1: R
Pool D Rd 2: W

Saturday Night Dinner Party Including Introduction of Past Champions, KCWO TDS, and key staffers.
Needed: a $3000 dinner sponsor

Sunday:
Pool A Rd 4: SG (shotgun start)
Pool B Rd 4: W
Pool C: BV (shotgun start--might be early)
Pool D: C (shotgun start)
Final 9: top 4 open and top 3 women playing together at Swope.






Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: aarong on September 22, 2011, 07:35:52 PM
Like I said I'm not too worried about it. I'm happy to have a 1 by my name for that tourney.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: twoDornottwoD on September 22, 2011, 10:37:44 PM
Wow, Rick!  It's almost like you've run a tournament or two in your lifetime.  ;)
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: Tom on September 23, 2011, 10:07:50 AM
Although not a favorite of the masses, shouldn't Shawnee Mission Park be included in this historic event, since the first KCWO was played there?
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: Loomis on September 27, 2011, 09:28:07 AM
Another wonderful option, though not popular with some, is the idea of putting in a temp course at SM park. I'm not sure about the details, but their is enough land there for an extremely tough course. I like the idea of the original WIDE OPEN coming back to SM Park. I doubt it will make the cut when the course roster is made, but it has my vote.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: spnachio on October 18, 2011, 11:59:42 AM
what about a lifetime membership to kcdgc. not sure how much $$ it should be. some to club some to wide open.  also maybe an early tshirt to spread the word
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: NoSponsor on November 26, 2011, 10:27:28 AM
How about a long distance contest with putters
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: ekolk on December 08, 2011, 10:02:24 PM
Let’s get this thread going again. This tournament is just around the corner.

With the 30th Wide Open fast approaching, I summarized some the relevant previous posts to possibly elicit some more feedback for the TDs/Planning Committee. My thoughts and opinions are pretty obvious as well.

Pro Side - NT event

Pro players seem to be treated well historically speaking from the posts here. From reading here, KC has traditionally had a deeper pay out on the pro side, and as one pro player said the KCWO is a great event to see friends they haven’t seen a while. If anything, from posts on the board, getting more pro players to sign up earlier would attract more players in all divisions earlier than later.

Am Side - A  and B Tier event

Wow this is where there was a lot said, so…

Players packs came up again and again. Kind of a split opinion on whether having a great players pack with name brand discs and quality schwag or a smaller players pack with a voucher to an on-site vendor.

Competition came up a few times as well as a result of the trophy only discussion. As it is now Ams playing in the A tier will play for merchandise. A positive I would guess from what I have read and heard.

Courses were pretty important for Am players as well. Traditionally, pro players have played all the premier courses for KCWO, Swope Gold, BV, or Waterworks long, etc. Course selection is key to Ams playing as well.

The option to go watch a pro final nine was encouraged.

Other concerns included the having PDGA tournament sight updated regularly and having clear lines of communication for out of town players. I’d love to see the club try to get more places to sleep for out of town Ams. Having food available between rounds or having a meal is something I have heard as well. People, like me, are also concerned about paying to be a PDGA member just to play a couple tourneys a year.  Clearly it is a personal choice, but it makes the WO cost 50 more, and for what?


Personally, I‘d like to see many more KC club members play the KCWO and represent. Vary rarely have I been carded with local players for the WO. I’d also like to see the Ams play great courses i.e. WW long, Swope Gold, Cliff, or Rosedale long. It’d be great if there could be food on the course when players have two rounds. It would make travel so much easier, especially for out of towners.
I hope this elicits some response, even of you think I am way off the mark and full of it.  :)
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: twoDornottwoD on December 08, 2011, 10:14:49 PM
Other concerns included the having PDGA tournament sight updated regularly and having clear lines of communication for out of town players. I’d love to see the club try to get more places to sleep for out of town Ams. Having food available between rounds or having a meal is something I have heard as well. People, like me, are also concerned about paying to be a PDGA member just to play a couple tourneys a year.  Clearly it is a personal choice, but it makes the WO cost 50 more, and for what?

although i personally choose to support the pdga, i understand the many reasons why some local ams don't.  i don't recall seeing an NT event paired with a B tier but i dont see why it couldn't be done.  then the locals who don't want to join can play for 10 extra bucks instead of 50.  this may increase the am turnout and in turn help the fund the pro side.  kudos to the new board for this brainstorm.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: Dale W on December 09, 2011, 12:59:43 AM
At the Sun Valley Open in San Diego last summer, instead of WATCHING the final 9, they paired the top 4 pro finishers with another player (chosen by raffle ticket) for alternating shot skins play ($1000 total/$200 per hole - this could easily be adjusted/modified).  They more than made the skins $$$ from the raffle tickets they sold (three "ticket baggers" bought $200 each....more power to them I guess...lol)  As much fun as it is watching pros play, it is even more intense watching a 16 year old player attempt a 20-25 ft putt with 2 skins on the line (he missed) and then later have the same situation in sudden death and make it for the final skin.  Or watch Steve Rico park a 400+ ft drive (with 60'+ elevation change up hill, a mando right and OB left) 27' from the basket just to have his partner (another pro actually) miss the putt for 3 skins.  I dont think any of the spectators or AMs left until this was over.  All of this took place before the awards ceremony and before they held the "merchandise" raffle (similar to the EDGE raffles many of the tourneys here have).  Just another option.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: Peter Bures on December 09, 2011, 01:37:45 AM
The WO this year will be my first A-Tier, and the first where I'll be playing in the same field as many top pros. Even though I'm an Am, it's still an allure to be playing in the same Tournament as those guys. So I don't have much input, simply because I don't have much to go off of. Especially in terms of players packs and the trophy-only discussion.

I do have a couple things, though, mainly about the play itself. As someone who plays the courses around here a lot, for a big tournament (where I'd likely be carded with players from out of town) I think it would be cool to play the elite courses (Waterworks, Swope Gold, etc) to get to be part of showing off what we really have to offer. Besides that, playing Swope Gold would be awesome in the first place.

Obviously I would want to be able to watch the Pro Final Round as well, but I don't see that being an issue (it wasn't in the past, was it?).
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: NoSponsor on December 09, 2011, 08:31:32 AM
I personally would rather have a players pack instead of merchandise at the end of the tournament.  In my opinion No Am tournament is supposed to be set up to have a few guys drive off with a trunk full of plastic.  I thought as an am you play to get the experience of competition,  enhance your game, and try to move up. 

With a players pack, lunch at the course, plenty of water, our world class courses.  I don't think there is a bad option on whatever the board decides.

Blue Valley is the best for the final round, just no band during play.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: Bill the TD on December 09, 2011, 08:32:39 AM
I agree with what Drew voiced.  I would pay a 10 dollar fee to play in the Wide Open.  50 is just too much I am not going to get enough out of it to justify fee.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: jamidanger on December 09, 2011, 09:11:41 AM
180 days until the 30th KCWO - May 29, 2012
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: Loomis on December 09, 2011, 06:38:57 PM
It wouldn't be right if I didn't say something.

Please. I beg you. Swope Gold. Rosie Gold. WW Gold. Cliff or BLue Valley. Make it hard. When you're comfortable with the course, make it harder.

Tee shirts and free discs are nice for REC and INT players and collectors. Don't stress out on it.

Pay out just needs to be decent, not excessive (unless you can afford to be excessive).

Entertain. Put ON... A... SHOW!!! Sports are just as much entertainment as they are about competition. Don't forget to think about that please.


I'm playing PRO this year, so I won't lobby one way or the other for anything.

You have absolutely everything you need to make the best tournament of the year. Don't be shy, use it all.

You have my support. I will be out picking up trash, clearing leaves and limbs, painting rings, stringing OB lines, and if I have to, kissing some ass to get attention.

I'm excited for this.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: HaterAde on December 09, 2011, 08:25:40 PM
Is Cliff Drive being used? I'm sure we can find ways to tighten the screws there, at least so nobody shoots 9 down with a double bogey on #1... ;D
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: phisherman_77 on December 10, 2011, 06:48:06 AM
for pete's sake Keizer, you need to get over your Orum man crush.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: HaterAde on December 10, 2011, 08:25:47 AM
When I want your opinion, Palmer, I'll give it to you. That was a performance for the ages, and you WILL learn to show due reverence.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: phisherman_77 on December 10, 2011, 09:07:13 AM
When I want your opinion, Palmer, I'll give it to you. That was a performance for the ages, and you WILL learn to show due reverence.

fine, fine.  just turn away from everyone when you discuss it.  you could poke someone's eye out.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: jack on December 12, 2011, 11:03:57 AM
When I want your opinion, Palmer, I'll give it to you. That was a performance for the ages, and you WILL learn to show due reverence.

fine, fine.  just turn away from everyone when you discuss it.  you could poke someone's eye out.

Now thas some funny stuff for me today, thank you both!

ON a side note, if anyone wants an "autographed" Greg Barsby Silverado with extended cab, there is one for sale for $1000.....

I'll see if I can find the You-Tube of it.....

PM me if interested in the truck.....
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: gleauzinier on December 12, 2011, 12:42:12 PM
why not 30 separate events to commemorate the herculean effort to produce the first one? if you do have at least one of the events use the original smp island shot in honor of ace mcmason.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: Greenwood17921 on December 21, 2011, 03:40:00 PM
I think one reason turnout is lower is because of the market saturation.  There's too many events too close together and very few people can play every weekend.

The reason KC is notorious for weaker am payouts is becuase they are turning a profit off your entry fees.  Nothing wrong with that, it is what it is.  They charge retail for your player pack discs, where some TD's don't.  It's simple math...$8 disc, they charge you $15 out of your entry, there's a $7 profit per person per disc for DGW or the club or whoever...

So let's say you got 3 discs and for arguements sake let's use a nice round number, say a $5 markup.  That's $15/player times 50 players would be $750 that they profit, rather than payout.

Des Moines' philosophy is to cover the costs of the player pack - that is we spread it evenly amongst all players that receive one.  Instead of turning a profit, we return that in the form of payout to the players.  So the higher the am turnout, the better the payout will be (more to spread the cost amongst)

I'm not saying one way is better than the other, we all have different reasons for running tournaments.

I will mention though, that the problem our method creates, is burnout.  When you do something for nothing, it gets old pretty quickly.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: NoSponsor on December 27, 2011, 10:11:55 AM
Are you trying to advertise your tournaments on the KC Wide Open Post Greenwood? 
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: KCVinnie on January 02, 2012, 11:44:25 AM
AM side - I would like to play a tough course the first round while I am well rested, like Cliff or Swope Gold.  I would like the second round to be sort of a moving day like Saturday on the PGA, give us some pins to shoot at, make some birdies and make up or lose ground quickly, Water Works is a great course for this because even set-up with easy pins it is a great course. Sunday, I would like Cliff or Swope Gold from the tips with 1 maybe 2 holes on the front and back 9 that are set-up for birdie chances.

For AM payout, I liked last years player pack, but I think it would be better to provide trophies deeper down the standings.  I liked Columbia where I finished in about the same place in the same division as the WO and was awarded with 6 discs as compared to nothing for the WO.  Maybe something like top 3 get a Star disc, 4 thru 6 get a Champ, 7 thru 9 a Pro, 10 thru 12 a Dx or something like that. 

Sunday Afternoon - I think most of the focus should be around how to make this as big a spectacle as can be made.  I was a little underwhelmed last year, which was more a function of my high expectations rather than how it was actually organized or run.  Not sure how to do it but getting everyone who participates in the event at the finals on Sunday as well as reasons for others outside of disc golf to come would be ideal.  The bigger the crowd the better for everyone.

Some of these ideas may have been tried before and failed, some may not be possible logistically, and some may just be poor, but it is the best I have.

1. Venue - I think Blue Valley is the best place we have.  Although if the courses up in Smithville were ready and we could have all divisions at one place, that would be awesome.
2. Have a central location at the park with the PDGA broadcast booth, disc vendors, food sales, a big scoreboard like the Masters, and some sort of a bleacher section.  I think if you have the Final 9 at Blue Valley there may be a spot by the parking lot to put a set of bleachers and sections for lawn chairs where people could sit and watch most of the Final 9 from 1 spot if the Final 9 were 1, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17.  I think it lends itself better to allowing newbies a chance to watch while not worrying about walking or making noise or moving and affecting the shots of the players.
3. Have a pamphlet that tells of the course and the major pro's at the event that people could purchase for a couple bucks, or possibly have an app for download that provides similar information.  If I bring friends that do not play, I would like to provide them information about the event and players.  Seems to me like the PDGA should be putting something like this out to help promote these type of events.  I'm not an app developer, but if the PDGA paid to have a template for the applications, that each TD could insert the information into, it may be cost effective for the app.
4. Have a food vendor out there selling hot dogs, hamburgers, etc.  I might be able to help with the vendor if one is needed.
5. Have a youth Drive, Approach, and Putt competition (similar to NFL Kick, Punt, and Pass) that ends before the final 9.  You could have this over on a hole on the short course at BV.  Get the event into the parks and recreation flyers for each major city in the area.  Not sure of the details, but maybe each child has to pay a nominal fee of $5 they get a disc and the winners get a dry fit shirt or something.  I really want to play in the WO, but if this is something the club wants to pursue and needs someone to run on Sunday afternoon, I might forgo my playing to make this happen.  I think having something like this on Sunday will help to bring people out to the finals.
6. I would like to see the Final 9 be a reset of the scores, so that everyone starts at even and plays for the championship with an equal shot.  I think for the fans, it will give the most excitement, but I understand it discounts the work on all of the previous holes.
7. Have the pro's tee off for their final round early Sunday at BV, same with the AM's at another park.  Have a final 9 for each division starting at 2:00ish from hole 1 at BV with the pro's being the last tee time. 
8. Provide a meal for each person in the WO, and the meal is provided Sunday afternoon at the Finals location.

These are the thoughts of a 30 something ex-college athlete who loves to compete, a father trying to raise kids and a little league coach who loves to teach and help out.
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: HaterAde on January 02, 2012, 12:42:44 PM
Seems I heard a notion the other day about getting the pros' feedback when it comes to choosing courses for the WO. Would it be possible to print out surveys, mail them out to all the pros', and let them "vote" on which courses they play?

Has anyone ever tried this approach when setting up a tournament?
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: jack on January 05, 2012, 03:20:02 PM
Wanted to share this in here....

As of right now I think that the ADV and Pro Fields are all set with regards to the BV, BS, Rosie, WW, Swope.

The"B" Tier could see the use of the K-7 Corridor courses, Olathe, Shawnee Mission, WyCo. 
The B-Tier will be all amateur divisions not on the Adv side and they will play 3 rounds, 2 saturday and 1 Sunday.

Initially we are looking at
(A)Open Men and Women doing:
Fri-BS-BV
Sat-Rosie-WW
Sun-Swope

(B)Age protected ADV and Pro Div:
Fri-BV-BS
Sat-Swope-Rosie
Sun-WW

(C) Adv Men & Women
Fri-Swope-WW
Sat-BS-BV
Sun-Rosie

Now this is up for discussion still, but should have it planned within the week as we may go the K-7 Route instead of this, but if we go this way everyone plays on the same courses....

(D) Int or Int/Rec
Sat-BV-Swope
Sun-BS

(E) REC/Novice
Sat-WW-BS
Sun-BV

The above though may be limited to 90 players and only one field, if that is the case you would only see a (D) pool configuration.

There will be camping available at Swope this year as well in Lake of the Woods, we hope to be able to have over 100 people staying there.  We have the camping area reserved from May 25-June 4th.  More information to follow, but that place shold be hopping the entire time!!
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: Greenwood17921 on January 16, 2012, 09:48:22 AM
Are you trying to advertise your tournaments on the KC Wide Open Post Greenwood?

nope, just illustrating how two similar events in cost can result in a different balance in player packs/payouts for the amateurs that don't "get it". 

But if you're interested in the First Class Challenge, I'm sure Jack will be happy to give you a ride.  He'll be here along with everybody else to defend his enormous skins win, which he can also tell you all about.  Point being, I don't need to promote it on here.  People in KC already know.  BTW, I'm Park Hill class of '89 and the 'rents still live there, so technically I'm from there. :P
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: Greenwood17921 on January 16, 2012, 10:09:08 AM
Wow Jack that lineup is sick!  BS = blue springs, right?

no cliff? 
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: jack on January 16, 2012, 10:19:04 AM
No Cliff at this time.  I am working on a few tweaks out there and more trees before we go all out on this course, and the Blue Springs/Blue Valley is sure to cause consternation in some of the top player's game!
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: Greenwood17921 on January 16, 2012, 02:49:33 PM
love it.  Doing everything I can to make it this year.  See you the weekend before.

Is Swope going to be the gold layout, or just regular?
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: Tom on January 16, 2012, 03:01:41 PM
No Cliff at this time.  I am working on a few tweaks out there and more trees before we go all out on this course, and the Blue Springs/Blue Valley is sure to cause consternation in some of the top player's game!

More trees is good.

Is the KCMO parks & rec planting more trees?
Title: Re: 30th KCWO Think Tank
Post by: jack on January 16, 2012, 03:12:03 PM
KCMO P&R will be funding some of the trees, but Drew started the Tree Love Classic at Cliff Drive, so we have a matching funds program that I will be working with the P&R to create a long term vision of returning to the trees that were there that go down and haven't been replaced....

Swope will be Gold there Jay-Bird.