KCFDC Forum

General => Tournaments => Topic started by: Scott A Reek on November 06, 2012, 01:26:15 PM

Title: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: Scott A Reek on November 06, 2012, 01:26:15 PM
Hello everyone,

I am going to run an unsanctioned event at Rosedale Park on December 9th playing one round up top and another round down under.  i will post the hole set up once i decide on it.  As always pre-registration helps with the speed of the tournament process but since it is unsanctioned, I ask that you at least contact me to let me know you are coming so I can have a card made for you ahead of time.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8205/8161888537_088b40907f_c.jpg)
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: robm on November 06, 2012, 03:57:27 PM
Scott, why no sanctioning?  You bum me out man.
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: Scott A Reek on November 06, 2012, 04:01:10 PM
Because it is later in the year and players seem to want the un sanctioned this time of year and it keeps the cost down and the money going more back to the players.  I didn't see a value to sanctioning this event and I run plenty of sanctioned events so a few non sanctioned seem reasonable.
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: robm on November 06, 2012, 04:03:28 PM
Understood.  Thanks.

Hey, it is Chanukah.

(http://rlv.zcache.com/righteous_disc_golf_sticker_bumper_sticker-p128128988518907765en7pq_152.jpg)
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: Peter Bures on November 06, 2012, 06:24:57 PM
Also these unsanctioned events give us Advanced players a chance to play up and get some experience in the Open Division.

I guess we could do that at a sanctioned event anyway, but you'd have to turn down cash.
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: mperry on November 06, 2012, 09:56:27 PM
Do you get the value of cash in a voucher form if you turn down the cash?
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: Jake B on November 07, 2012, 06:48:30 AM
no
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: Scott A Reek on November 07, 2012, 07:50:52 AM
It depends on the TD, most of my events I do allow it or I at least make sure you receive something
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: Ken Franks on November 07, 2012, 07:52:29 AM
no
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: The Bird Father on November 07, 2012, 08:22:46 AM
Why would you turn down cash at an unsanctioned event?

If you guys are into that sort of thinking....I'll start running events every weekend!!   ;D
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: sportwood on November 07, 2012, 02:15:04 PM
I am registered...  Hopefully our luck with the weather holds!
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: andyportwood on November 11, 2012, 12:49:51 PM
I finally talked my wife into letting me play so save a spot for me  :P
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: Flying J on November 11, 2012, 09:22:14 PM
Matt, IMO if you receive any prizes while playing Open, then you have cashed in Open and lose Am status.  If you plan on retaining Am status while playing in the Open field, you should be doing it for the experience and not for the recompense.
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: mperry on November 11, 2012, 11:51:33 PM
There was some confusion on my previous post. I meant for sanctioned events only if there is a voucher opportunity and I realize now that some will offer and some will not. Lets be honest I know I'm not ready for open yet but I want to be and so that's why I posed this question. I want to play in the open division because I know that will make me better. I wanted to get an answer because leading up to am worlds I'd like to play a few open tournaments to get a feel for the added pressure that may come with playing against better people and am worlds is the biggest bagger tourney ever. I want to Introduce myself to this level of conpetition due to my drive to get better.
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: Utz on November 12, 2012, 09:43:58 AM
Perry:

 Reclassification (http://www.pdga.com/rules/2-3-reclassification)

and what actually happens when you reclassify in a season? slightly more  complicated (http://www.pdga.com/faq/pdga-tour/accepting-cash-and-playing-in-amateur-divisons)

You'll still be able to play AM in A, B, and C tier tourneys IF you are in the rating cap (http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/PlayerDivisionGridTable3.pdf) (< 970), but you wont be invited to any AM majors. You can always classify back to an amateur next year, or pay the full Pro membership cost.

But this is unsanctioned.. so make $$$ saaaan.
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: jack on November 12, 2012, 10:55:51 AM
.... I meant for sanctioned events only if there is a voucher opportunity..... I want to play in the open division because I know that will make me better. I wanted to get an answer because leading up to am worlds I'd like to play a few open tournaments to get a feel for the added pressure......

As an AM, you can take prizes in lieu of cash.  You wouldn't forfeit your amateur status any longer which is a change from years past where this practice was unacceptable.  Now it is at the discretion of the TD on this issue, as in some areas the TD will just award the cash to the next person down.
PDGA Competition Manual

Section 2: Division Qualifications

2.1 General

E. Professional players entering into a Professional division compete for money and Amateur players entering into a Professional division may accept merchandise in lieu of cash.
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: Ken Franks on November 12, 2012, 01:53:13 PM

E. Professional players entering into a Professional division compete for money and Amateur players entering into a Professional division may accept merchandise in lieu of cash.

 Which takes the entry outta open and AM's still play for merch... Whats he point than?

Play open, decline the cash or just stay AM and take your merch...

  Merching out an am, playing Open, is totally weak sauce!!!
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: Flying J on November 12, 2012, 02:09:17 PM
I agree with Tank, it's total BS.  That's akin to cashing and spending all the cash on prizes after the event. 

Complete and utter weak sauce.

You want to play with the big dogs, move up and donate for a while like most of us have.
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: Utz on November 12, 2012, 02:17:48 PM
An AM accepting merch as a pay-out for open doesn't effect the purse for open.. In fact I'm sure it makes the sponsoring company more money.. Right? am I reading your posts correctly Josse & Tank?

Why pay the extra $$ to become a Professional PDGA card carrying member?
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: jack on November 12, 2012, 02:33:37 PM
An AM accepting merch as a pay-out for open doesn't effect the purse for open.. In fact I'm sure it makes the sponsoring company more money.. Right? am I reading your posts correctly Josse & Tank?

Negative.

If I took 2nd place in an event that pays $1000-$750-$500, I would be able at the TD's discretion receive $750 in "stuff/schwag", the TD then moves on.  It does affect the payout, because the TD can point out that they paid out $750 to the player in prizes in lieu of cash, only needing to report it on the TD report to the PDGA.

It then makes the TD/Tourney money as they give out full retail pricing of $750 for items that probably cost $500.  SO they make $250, which is ok to make money, that isn't the issue.

The issue for the "pro's" is that it does hurt the bottom line in that another pro misses getting paid, which is the crux of the argument that the Grow our SPort thread is about.
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: Utz on November 12, 2012, 03:12:24 PM
Oh, well I have no remorse for somebody who's shot a higher score than me.. boo hoo on that.. Want cash? shoot better dude.. grow the sport or not!
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: Ken Franks on November 12, 2012, 07:32:40 PM
You still pay the 50$ to the PDGA instead of the 75$ the pro's pay. Once you accept cash, the following year, you will have to register in the Professional division( Ie, Open, Pro Masters...)
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: Flying J on November 13, 2012, 01:13:27 PM
Don't Mark Martin us, Utz.  Move up, you bagger.
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: Scott A Reek on November 29, 2012, 11:08:48 AM
We are getting a lot of response on this event.  if you are planning on going, please let me know so I can have a card made up ahead of time for you.

The first round we are playing Down Under somewhat shorter and if everything goes as planned we will be playing the new holes (#9 and #18).  The second round will be played up top and it will be set to Medium with some longer shots.  For example we will be playing Hole #18 to the Practice basket that is on the edge of the woods :)

Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: Ken Franks on November 30, 2012, 07:51:30 PM
For example we will be playing Hole #18 to the Practice basket that is on the edge of the woods :)

 for example, SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEETT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: Scott A Reek on December 04, 2012, 10:46:44 AM
The new holes Down Under are ready and we should have the course set any day for the Winter Wonderland on Sunday.  We are getting some registrations in, but I know there are a lot more people who i have heard are coming but have not talked to me yet.  Please help me out by letting me know if you will be there.

Thanks
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: andyportwood on December 07, 2012, 11:58:07 AM
The new holes Down Under are ready and we should have the course set any day for the Winter Wonderland on Sunday.  We are getting some registrations in, but I know there are a lot more people who i have heard are coming but have not talked to me yet.  Please help me out by letting me know if you will be there.

Thanks

Sorry I haven't paid up yet. I'll be there either this evening or tomorrow morning to make it official.
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: Ken Franks on December 07, 2012, 02:37:39 PM
what happened to the flyer on the first page?
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: jack on December 07, 2012, 02:59:49 PM
Поскольку сайт говорит, что это изображение или видео в данный момент недоступен, я имею в виду не нравился! Давай Tank!
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: Jake B on December 07, 2012, 03:46:36 PM
I've always suspected you were a Russian spy Jack!
Or should I call you Джек!
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: jack on December 07, 2012, 03:51:06 PM
I now must kill you.  Sorry it had to be that way!!
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: Scott A Reek on December 07, 2012, 06:04:17 PM
I am not sure what happened but it should be there now
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: mperry on December 09, 2012, 07:54:48 AM
Well I was on my way out there but my tire popped. Won't be making this one
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: Mantis on December 09, 2012, 08:59:06 PM
Great time today... Thanks DD... Ps . Tank, you will lose to me one day  ;D
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: Scott A Reek on December 10, 2012, 10:17:39 AM
Thank you to everyone who came out today.  It got a little windier the second round and tad colder but everyone stuck it out.  We officially had 41 players.

Open Men
Ken Franks - 103
Bobby Villarreal - 105
Lee Killian - 106
Arturo Villarreal - 106
Matt Crowe - 107
Steve Dresser - 108
Steve Thimmesch - 114
Joe Bishop - 116
Rob Adams - 121
Travis Daetwiler - 122
Peter Bures - 124

Pro Masters
Bryan Guthrie - 108
Mike Thomas - 112
Pete Cashen - 113
Danny Knox - 115

Advanced Men
Ed Holbrook - 120
Josh Oothoudt - 127
Mike Quiroga - 129
Cory Obermeyer - 129
Drue Allison - 130

Intermediate Men
Bill Shinoski - 119 (Won Playoff)
Corey Franks - 119
Andy Portwood - 119
Corey Harrison - 120
Jacob Strait - 120
Michael Walker -120
David Steeby - 130
Ben Patterson - 131
Dustin Pope - 132
Kevin Corbin - 134
Chris Newman - 144
Chris Portwood - 150

Recreational Men
Connor Callahan - 126
Matt Wells - 128
Duane Waldman - 134
Will Ward - 135
Drew Chambers - 142

Thanks again to everyone who came and helped
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: andyportwood on December 10, 2012, 12:45:48 PM
That was a competitive match! The top six players in intermediate all seperated collectively by one stroke?! I LOVE THIS GAME!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: The Bird Father on December 10, 2012, 12:57:44 PM
That was a competitive match! The top six players in intermediate all seperated collectively by one stroke?! I LOVE THIS GAME!!!!!!!!!

And all would have been battling for 1st & 2nd in advanced.......

........BAGGERS!
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: Ken Franks on December 10, 2012, 03:41:01 PM
That was a competitive match! The top six players in intermediate all seperated collectively by one stroke?! I LOVE THIS GIANT BAG OF SAND!!!!!
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: hberciunas on December 10, 2012, 06:56:36 PM
baggers
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: jack on December 11, 2012, 10:09:54 AM
What's with all the sandbags?  I didn't know that any flooding was happening.  In fact I heard today that the water levels were low, so people please remove your sandbags.
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: jamidanger on December 11, 2012, 10:41:39 AM
Function
 


Sand has found many commercial uses around the world. Usually, each task requires a unique and ideal type of sand in order to produce optimal results. Commercial uses of sand include, but are not limited to:
 
Sand casting, a form of molding material
Concrete, which often contains a high volume of sand
Glass, in which sand is a central component
Certain types of bricks that contain sand
Textured paint
Sandbags, used to prevent flooding and bullet penetration and beating golfers WAY less skilled than yourself, see bullying
Landscaping, used as a natural element



Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: Flying J on December 11, 2012, 02:32:06 PM
Wow.  That's disgusting sandbagging.  That's a crying shame. 

Congratulations to David Steeby, the rightful Am tournament champion.
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: LKillian on December 11, 2012, 03:07:14 PM
Thanks scott for bringing back the rosie up and down tourney.

Great contrast in the 2 courses made for a fun day.

I would also like to personally thank you for putting my name above arturo's. Even though we tied, my name looks good up there. ;D ;D.

My first cash, but totally unsanctioned so plenty of opportunities for more baggin!! ;)
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: Utz on December 11, 2012, 03:49:08 PM
Table-ized results listed here (http://kcfdc.org/ai1ec_event/rosedale-winter-wonderland/?instance_id=23905)
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: jack on December 11, 2012, 04:32:17 PM
Thanks scott
I would also like to personally thank you for putting my name above arturo's. Even though we tied, my name looks good up there. ;D ;D.
Typically it is based on the last round score, so if you shot better than him the 2nd round, you earned the right to be above him.

If not, then you thanks to Scott!
 ;D
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: LKillian on December 11, 2012, 04:50:10 PM
hmmm. me making a comeback on Arturo...

Thanks Scott, ur the man. ;D
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: dickthediscparker on December 11, 2012, 04:51:09 PM
On the bagger situation... Has anyone thought that maybe the Intermediate guys stepped up to Advanced while the other guys just stayed in their division? I know it isn't as fun to think of it that way but... just sayin.
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: hberciunas on December 11, 2012, 07:07:40 PM
Surely it is time for some sort of player rating system???
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: Flying J on December 12, 2012, 08:41:08 AM
On the bagger situation... Has anyone thought that maybe the Intermediate guys stepped up to Advanced while the other guys just stayed in their division? I know it isn't as fun to think of it that way but... just sayin.

Sorry, but six of the twelve Intermediate competitors were within one stroke of one another and ten strokes away from the other six.  The top six were clearly playing at another level compared to the bottom six, and that level is the Advanced level. 

Having said that, I don't know these competitors and how they compete on a daily basis.  It is posible and probable for one or two competitors to play out of their minds one day and crush the competition, and based on the results of that one day alone they should not me made to move up to the next level.  Nor should they.  Consistency is the determining factor.  Being in the top 3 over and over again.
 
But there wasn't one or two.  There were six.  Six competitors playing the lowest level they could with one motive in mind.  To get a win.  They probably felt that they "could not win" in Advanced, so they played Intermediate.  It wasn't about "being competitive" in advanced, for I'm sure they knew they could be. It was about the belief that they couldn't win it.  In my humble opinion.

If one or two of you six is trully an intermediate level player and killed it on the course that day, then I extend my sincere congratulations to you.  Great job out there.
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: Utz on December 12, 2012, 08:44:31 AM
In unsanctioned events there needs to be one division for Amateur. Then a Recreational division for those who are amateur but aren't quite into the spirit of competition. Without ratings, and the low number of attendance having 2 AM divisions is silly.

Oh, there's no such thing as sandbagging. If you're given a choice of a division without a rating requirement then who the hell are we to tell someone where they want to/should play? I know all of the people playing that tourney in AM had no intention of sandbagging, They probably feel that at a PDGA level their game is Intermediate.

You could also say Ed/Bill were bagging in AM, when they should be been playing in Open...see what'm saying?

Seriously though. Just 1 AM division solves all this malarkey.
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: jamidanger on December 12, 2012, 09:15:43 AM
if rosedale was attacked by insurgents, who better to build the bunkers then those with bags of sand? thank you baggers for being well prepared.
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: eeastwood on December 12, 2012, 10:06:46 AM
I agree with Utz.  One AM division and maybe a rec division for new players would solve this problem.  I played in the Afternoon D-Lite a few years ago and the divisions were Pro-1, Pro-2, Advanced, Intermediate, Masters, Rec, Jrs, and Women.  At the time, I had only played in 2 tournaments as Intermediate and was ready to move up to Advanced.  So that's what I played, but I should have played Pro-2 since it was unsanctioned and there many more players in that division. Plus, I would have finished 2nd in Pro-2 and won more.  Back then, I didn't know the difference between sanctioned or unsanctioned or why it mattered.  I think part of the issue with this and similar tournaments is that several normally Advanced level players (in PDGA sanctioned events) moved up to play Open since it was un-sanctioned.  Also, I think the number of players in each division can influence it, especially if someone is borderline Intermediate to Advanced to player.  Or it could be a group of guys of similar level all want to play and compete together in the same division.  But really who cares?   

Do you know what breeds winning? More winning!
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: jack on December 12, 2012, 10:18:38 AM
I agree with Utz.  One AM division and maybe a rec division for new players would solve this problem.  .....  But really who cares?....

Perfect, this is about the sport that we want to grow, so lest us not cast out those that are playing, and alienate them at an event that isn't sanctioned.  It's a choice, just like I chose to rejoin the Am ranks this past year.
 :P

I made the decision that I don't care what division you want to call me as a player, but I don't want to be limited in my decisions as well.

Speaking of SAND BAGGERS....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Jones_%28golfer%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Jones_%28golfer%29)

How would you treat him?  None of us in this forum only play disc golf, so in my mind all of us should be am's, and then at what level is what I make a conscience decision, not you to decide for myself.

That being said, goading your friend into playing the correct division should always be happening in my mind.  How they respond is a testament of their own belief in your opinion of them.....
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: eeastwood on December 12, 2012, 11:49:38 AM
I should probably explain myself a little more concerning the "who cares" comment.  What I meant was, who cares if they choose to play in a lower division.  My last statement "what breeds winning?  more winning!" was meant to say that allowing new players to have success and win (in intermediate or novice or rec or jr) will motivate them and give them confidence to continue and grow as a competitor and be a winner.  I'm not saying I recommend eliminating divisions, I'm saying that I agree with Utz that if you only had one AM division then this issue of people getting called bagger and alienating them would end.   
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: zumagun on December 15, 2012, 12:05:12 PM
I'm D.S. who threw 130 in Intermediate.  That was 58 down under and 72 up top :o ; my worst round ever.

If I would have thrown my average round up top, between 58 and 62, I would have been considered a bagger too.  I don't know about the guys below me, but they could have either played up from Rec., or just had a bad day like me, which led to the ten-throw gap on the intermediate scores.
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: hberciunas on December 16, 2012, 08:20:28 AM
The problem is with those who continually play down and finish top 5 several strokes better than the pack. The ones who have a great round and win by several is not the problem. Nor is the problem when someone is playing thier level and has a terrible round. I am never upset at those who are playing at my level and beat me, especially if I have a poor round. I am upset with those who have poor rounds when I play well in my division and still beat me and the pack by 5-10 ten strokes.

Now . . . unsanctioned is a different animal. I am thankful that the leadership of those unsantioned tourneys encourage others to move up. I moved up and played ok, and would have been a bagger in the rec division, but I didn't know that at the time. Those I usually play with in rec all moved up and so the intermediate division was last summer's rec. Again there were the few who played at different level then the pack and would have had good showing in Advanced or even Open.

eeastwood has a great point, and it is part of what keeps me playing tourneys: ""what breeds winning?  more winning!" was meant to say that allowing new players to have success and win (in intermediate or novice or rec or jr) will motivate them and give them confidence to continue and grow as a competitor and be a winner."

I have only been playing for about a year and so perhaps I don't know what I am talking about. Or perhaps, you who are playing at the highest levels and been playing for several years might want to listen to and think of those who are new and rising in the sport.

Those of us who are new and buying lots of new equipement and paying to play at the lower levels do make a difference in the payouts for those of you playing pro. Even if the pot doesn't reflect our pay-in, sponsors are less likely to sponsor 20 guys playing a tourney as they are a group of 100 plus in men's, plus women's and juniors with families spectating.

By the way, "thank you's" to those who are at those higher/pro levels for being welcoming and helpful to us newbies and wannabees and going to bes.
Title: Re: Rosedale Winter Wonderland - Unsanctioned
Post by: discglover on December 16, 2012, 10:57:56 AM
Shooting a good round to accomplish a win is important. But not near as important as having fun no matter how well you shoot. In my eyes those that portray a fun attitude no matter their score is the real winner. Thus "The most fun wins!"