KCFDC Forum

KCFDC Courses => Cliff Drive => Topic started by: jack on April 22, 2013, 12:57:49 PM

Title: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: jack on April 22, 2013, 12:57:49 PM
So here is a great story......As I had indicated earlier in the week last week, I had planned to go out and do some of the work needed to continue with the new addition to Cliff Drive Disc Golf Complexion....I assumed that I would be working out there by lonesome, because, well let's face it, most of you reading this aren't getting up at 8 am on a Saturday to show up at Cliff Drive to work on a course. (Notably, most I indicated, some of you would...)  So I do this, I get up to the area that I want to continue to work on, and as I pull in, a bobcat is there pulling and collecting debris from the area that I have been working on.  I think to myself....hmmmmm.......that's cool, I wonder who that is doing this...great.....I pull a little closer, and it has the KCMO signatures on it.  I think to myself, well that is odd, did I sleep until Monday?  I know it is Saturday right?  So I get up there, and start talking with the driver.  He indicated to me that he was being pro-active and wanted to get moving on some of this. I was in awe!  Then he stated, "Everyone else is over on the other hillside.", I was really confused at this point.

So I hop back in my car and discover that a church (Redemption KC) has organized a workday focusing in the area.  They have over 100 volunteers that come in and clean and work and make a difference in the park.

Combined with the helpers of about 8-10 on the new area, and other areas of the park, it is looking good.  It does though beg the question though how come a church can get 100 people to the park to help, and we are having trouble getting 5......

I for one am ashamed that we aren't working stronger in our parks, and I ask that each of you plan on helping with the organized workdays coming up as we get ready to host our guests for the Wide Open.  Not only will it help the event, but we are the benefactors for months to come with the effort of the work we put in.  Sure it looks good on the weekend of the Wide Open, but after they leave town, it looks good for us in the future as well.

I tell, I was in awe of the folks out there doing work for the community to feel good about it.  Almost none of them lived in or around the area.  I was saddened by the knowledge that this group that has no affiliation with the area was able to make an impact that I feel we should as a collective group, but many times don't.

I do understand that this is a work that goes beyond the effort of one weekend, but when we have the efforts of a few dedicated, we will make this venue better, and many others.

They got a great deal done towards my own goals for the course, and I challenge you to help where they left off.

My other thought is to leave the club and join the church, as at least they seem to have people that care about things that may not matter to their local area, but matter the community they live in.  Kansas City.......
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: Mike Hyzer on April 22, 2013, 01:48:38 PM
It does though beg the question though how come a church can get 100 people to the park to help, and we are having trouble getting 5......

Duh, it's because the KCFDC is comprised of God-less heathens. ;D
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: coops on April 22, 2013, 02:35:45 PM
Why should the good deeds of another group be used to shame this group?

Can't we just laud their efforts, be proud of our community and carry on?

Which Redemption was it in KC? I found two websites:
http://www.kcredemption.org/ (http://www.kcredemption.org/)
OR
http://www.redemptionkc.com/ (http://www.redemptionkc.com/)

I think, whichever one it was, we should send them some gratitude.
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: jack on April 22, 2013, 03:32:00 PM
I agree Coop, and I already did that, and thanked them quite a bit.

The fact remains though that we aren't stepping up as much as we should, and that is the shame that i am attempting to put in front of people.  We need to do more, and we are big enough that we should be able to do more.

It isn't something that they will use, it is something that we will use, and therefore I feel that we as a collective group of over 300 active members, and over 1500 total members should be pushing each other to make it better.

Had I not posted this information none would be the wiser, and as we move forward without doing our fair share in the park, we will lose that respect, and trust with our parks partners, which will enable them to not care as much about the efforts of our club as they will be sporadic.  We need to be a driving force within our parks, or we need to get out.

I for one am at that point.  I am old, and have been doing work now in KC for about 15 years on the courses/grants/behind/in front of the scenes.  I am tired of it.  I won't be doing this much longer, and I don't see anyone else pushing people to try to gain traction to get it done.

If I don't do it who is going to?  Other organizations?  Rely on the P&R?

I have designed and/or worked on 10 courses in the area over the last 9 years.  Only Theiss, and Dick have really helped in that regards with the developmental aspect of it, but beyond courses, it has been getting things in place for the future so that people can carry the torch forward.

I don't see it happening, and it saddens me.  Until our little snobby group of players get out and do the work needed and get their fingers dirty, pick up trash in areas, not in my back yard, we won't continue to move forward. 

Instead it is where can I play.  So as we move forward who is going to be doing that?  Who is going to be leading that?  At this point I have helped to write grants, helped to bring in worlds, helped to keep NT's in KC with a very few dedicated individuals.  I mean a few dedicated folks.  I spend on average probably close to 300-400 hrs a year at meetings about ensuring our place at the table.  You know who I don't see, others in the disc golf community.......

I am tired of looking around feeling as though it is something that a group does, and then the group doesn't do it.

Prove me wrong is what I am asking.  Prove me wrong, show me that our collective disc golf group is willing to coordinate and get 8-10 people out at each course for 4-6 hours of work a couple times before the wide open.  That you will attend P&R meetings, neighborhood meetings, etc...to showcase what they are talking about and how we are a part of the vision moving forward.

Joining the club is easy, throwing money at the club to support it is harder, but easier, giving your time to the cause to ensure longevity is what I am talking about, and that is where my gripe stems from currently.

I am sure that it will change as well about what I want to gripe about
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: Mike Hyzer on April 22, 2013, 04:05:27 PM
Why should the good deeds of another group be used to shame this group?


Yeah, Jack! This group could have easily been shamed without mentioning another group!
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: coops on April 22, 2013, 04:14:37 PM
I hesitate to even get into this and am doing so against my better judgment, but here goes:

I, personally, feel that a lot of the lack of participation can be drawn back to the organization of work days, a lack of feeling welcome/wanted, location of the work, and an overall sense that many voices that are not the 'main players' aren't wanted. I'll go over each point one by one.

Organization: I have to admit, Cliff is one of the better organized work days out there as far as getting the word out about the day and so forth. Let me use another example which I think is more endemic of how DG work days tend to go. Perry. I had volunteered on multiple occasions to go help out at Perry since it is much closer to Lawrence and I thought it would be cool to see a course go in from the get-go. Unfortunately, in that specific case, it was never advertised till a day or so before the work day and in that time I had already gotten plans together, whether leaving town or a tournament or whatever else.
Also part of the organization is the fact that many of us don't have the tools to really be all that effective when we volunteer. As a renter I very few tools and the work days that I've shown up to have only had a couple people who could really do much work because those were the people that brought their own tools like chainsaws, polesaws, and hedge-clippers.

Lack of welcoming/wanting: Two specific reasons I have here. One specific work day that I've attended (and relating to a lack of adequate tools mentioned above) I was chastised for doing work that wasn't 'good enough' or looked bad. I think it is a pretty easy point to prove that someone or people who aren't happy that you are working on their days off and are willing to berate you for said work doesn't make me want to show up to many more work days.
Another example comes from a very recent course, the Lakeside course in Olathe. A lot of people, including many Olathe regulars (like me) weren't even aware the course was going in until the pins were in place. If that doesn't scream not welcome then I don't know what does.

Location: This one is simple and fast. I'm not going to drive to Cliff for a work day. I drive from Lawrence to KC Monday through Friday for work and I'm not going to go all the way to Cliff for more work on Saturday. If I drive that far I'm playing. I might pick up some trash or move some brush while I play but not more than that. I may drive to Olathe for a work day, or Perry, but not all the way in. I think this goes to what we consider our home courses and where we should be working. I think that this is actually a good thing too. We should have ownership of our home courses and should work at them and not sacrifice that work for another course outside our purview.

I'll call this one elitism: This one is just an overall sense that I get that many players views are welcome. I know that you point out that only you and John Theiss and Dick have actually designed courses (to which I would add Tom Butler and Andy Lewis for Lakeside) but that doesn't mean that others don't have valuable input for how to design or redesign a course. I think it is a shame that many of our potential 'new' courses don't have play test days where Arturo and Tank and Jake and Joe and Matt Perry and Jordan and all of these great or soon to be great players get to check it out and offer feedback. Yes, it is hard to design by committee, I get that, but that doesn't mean there isn't a way to get that sort of information and have one person be in charge for deciding what should happen.
And I know on multiple occasions I've voiced opinions on here that you have responded to and said essentially "well as soon as you put in as many hours as I have your opinion can have some weight". I get that you've done a lot of work and I'm very thankful for that, but the assumption that amount of work suggests or predicts a correct viewpoint is fallacious.

So, there's the problems, how do we fix it?

Ownership is the only way I can see. I like the idea that we sort of have a bunch of mini-clubs within the club. There would be people who would claim Cliff as their home, those that would claim the Olathe courses (I think they call themselves birds), a Waterworks and Old Pike Club, Wyco and SMP. There then, should be no expectation, that someone calling Olathe their home should be expected to work in KCMO and vice versa.

P.S. -  None of this is meant to be mean-spirited or sympathy-seeking or whatever else you want to call it. I am merely trying to think about the issues raised in the original post, espouse the view of those of us who do not attend these work days, and to try to see what we can do to resolve those issues.

P.P.S. - Which Church was it? I think that we should have everyone who wants to write them an email to say thanks. At the very least please PM me the answer because I want to.

P.P.P.S. - Let's hope this rain holds off. I want to play some Cliff tonight!
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: Mike Hyzer on April 22, 2013, 04:29:56 PM
Nice post, Coop. I just don't get the part where you say you're hesitant to post it. That was a whole bunch of "telling it like it is", and there ain't nothin' wrong with that. Let's face it-- most of the time, the truth, or "telling it like it is", sounds negative. Don't let the idea that folks might think you're an arse for speaking the truth keep you from doing just that. Sure beats burying our heads in the sand and pretending that everything is cool all the time when it isn't.

Anyway, yeah, nice post.
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: coops on April 22, 2013, 05:19:15 PM
Nice post, Coop. I just don't get the part where you say you're hesitant to post it. That was a whole bunch of "telling it like it is", and there ain't nothin' wrong with that. Let's face it-- most of the time, the truth, or "telling it like it is", sounds negative. Don't let the idea that folks might think you're an arse for speaking the truth keep you from doing just that. Sure beats burying our heads in the sand and pretending that everything is cool all the time when it isn't.

Anyway, yeah, nice post.

Thanks. I mostly meant that I didn't want to piss anybody off. I really think there is a way to communicate what I was trying to and to do so without being offensive but also by covering important discussion points and really trying to get at the heart of what Jack is talking about. It is certainly 'telling it like it is' and I also think that is valuable.

I also don't want to be pity-seeking or for anyone to feel like I'm just upset about not being included or need to be treated with kid-gloves. I am a big boy and can deal with some criticism, but I think when examining these issues it is important to consider that these sorts of behaviors can be deterrents to getting our courses in the best shape and operating cohesively as a club.

Also it was raining when I left work so I just came home. I hope that league happens still but I've just had too much poor weather golf recently to go seeking it. Hopefully one of these weeks I'll actually get to make PDGA league.
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: ekolk on April 22, 2013, 09:25:43 PM
Don't ever worry about pissing someone off. My two cents. That's how things sometimes get done. I have been thinking about this topic for years and do often wonder why it takes the community of God to make something happen. It is a shame most people don't give, and I mean truly give, for all the right reasons. I am a huge supporter of local churches everywhere as they do so much good. And why do they do it? Well, that may be very personal to each individual, but I can bet one part is the camaraderie of doing something with friends for one purpose.  I think we have that in this dispersed and rag tag group. However, the fissures you speak of are obvious.

I agree with the railroading certain members often engage in to push a single agenda. I am glad to hear someone say it. I work against and with it but I am just one person.  Yes, we have lots of work to do in this organization. Communication is dysfunctional among us.

I have similar experience with trying to organize workdays. I get lots of advice about what I should and could do. I don't want to do it. I want some help. BTW, Patrick Smith and Chris Millsap have been great to work with at Swope.  I guess my stance is to keep going out and doing what I can and trying to encourage and engage more people. It is my M.O. to lead and model what I think works.

As for the PDGA league, I went out tonight and played with Ryan Keck and CD. What great company. They were so kind as they watched my good round implode. :)  The worst part was as I came in and announced my out-of-character 63, Jack was so happy because he qualified and beat me. :) Next time!  ;)
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: jamidanger on April 22, 2013, 11:34:11 PM
what-ev, our golf community? more charities than i care to name and beaucoup park improvements, thanks church people, you are now one of us!
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: Tom on April 23, 2013, 07:58:54 AM
Coop, (and anyone else that I didn't notify):
Sorry you didn't get invited to one of our workdays. As the sole designer and instigator of Lakeside Hills, my plan was to keep the course a secret until the day of the Ram N Salmon, and then Andy was going to spring it to the players at the morning players meeting that the second round would be at the Lake. That didn't happen of course, but that was the main reason for the secrecy. Addiitionally, as always, we had plenty of hands and crew to get done what we needed to. As you know, we never have a shortage of volunteers for workdays in Olathe. I also felt a little left out at recent workdays, as my chainsaw was broke down from the last workday at PC, but anybody can go to home depot and buy a machete for under $20. Machetes and axes are awesome tools whose use builds character. (ie, just look at what a character Danger is)

We will be setting in some alterrnate sleeves, modifying some tee locations, and doing a little bit of clearing on an upcoming weekend when the ground drys and the temps increase. Watch this forum for the announced date. I typically make it tentative until a day or two before, because in an outdoor working enviroment we are always at the mercy of Mother Nature. In the mean time, Cliff has an upcoming workday I beleive, and PC will be needing a mow on the pond bank before long. Brian Taylor, Mark Albers, Brian Corneilius, and Leevarn Sarvis put a mow on it last year all on their own, without an "official workday" being announced. To finish this post I would go on to say that all of us can perform one of the best pieces of work everytime we play ANY course, simply by picking up any trash we see laying around in the parks.  :)
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: The Bird Father on April 23, 2013, 08:15:03 AM
Coop, (and anyone else that I didn't notify):
Sorry you didn't get invited to one of our workdays. As the sole designer and instigator of Lakeside Hills, my plan was to keep the course a secret until the day of the Ram N Salmon, and then Andy was going to spring it to the players at the morning players meeting that the second round would be at the Lake. That didn't happen of course, but that was the main reason for the secrecy. Addiitionally, as always, we had plenty of hands and crew to get done what we needed to. As you know, we never have a shortage of volunteers for workdays in Olathe. I also felt a little left out at recent workdays, as my chainsaw was broke down from the last workday at PC, but anybody can go to home depot and buy a machete for under $20. Machetes and axes are awesome tools whose use builds character. (ie, just look at what a character Danger is)

We will be setting in some alterrnate sleeves, modifying some tee locations, and doing a little bit of clearing on an upcoming weekend when the ground drys and the temps increase. Watch this forum for the announced date. I typically make it tentative until a day or two before, because in an outdoor working enviroment we are always at the mercy of Mother Nature. In the mean time, Cliff has an upcoming workday I beleive, and PC will be needing a mow on the pond bank before long. Brian Taylor, Mark Albers, Brian Corneilius, and Leevarn Sarvis put a mow on it last year all on their own, without an "official workday" being announced. To finish this post I would go on to say that all of us can perform one of the best pieces of work everytime we play ANY course, simply by picking up any trash we see laying around in the parks.  :)

Blaming the Ram'N'Salmon for keeping Lakeside a secret is TOTAL BS.....we joked about this at time to time but it was never a truly viable option.  Don't drag my tourney into this!

Tom did all the up-front work with the city and there are more reasons he can elaborate on, so please solely focus your comments towards him since I had "nothing" to do with it.  I just added man power to the efforts...and Brody (4 yrs old) power..that is what I'm proud of.

I know sometimes people are not brought into work days because all the want to do is stand around and say "What if", or "Why not this" all day and never GET TO WORK!

As far as the lack of power tools....I suggest pick up trash...clear debris from fairways, line paths with rocks...trust me...power tools do not make it more fun.
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: Mike Hyzer on April 23, 2013, 08:35:50 AM
line paths with rocks...

Good one, I bet that's not something people think of very often. It's the little things, y'all!
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: coops on April 23, 2013, 08:38:55 AM
Tom: It wasn't the point of my post to elicit an apology or even to blame you for anything. I was just using things from my personal experience that I thought proved the points I was trying to make. Also, Andy is the one who broke the news on Facebook.

Andy: I'm not saying the lack of tools is the ONLY reason for not showing up to a work day, I'm saying it is a contributing factor. There isn't one simple reason people choose not to show up, often it is a plethora of many small reasons, among which is being forced to stand there and say "what if" because you don't have any tools to actually help contribute.

And let me take a minute to address this "what if" and "why not this" situation. If a work day, when things are actually getting changed and decisions have to be made, isn't the time to do it then when is? I have and will continue to be a supporter of some crowd-sourcing designs. I think, obviously, that one or two people have to be the main decision makers but we have enough talented players in this city who have played enough courses that they should be asked what they think about changes or new holes. We are trying to create/provide the highest quality golf possible and while it is entirely possible one designer could get there on his/her own it is more likely that a group of people, offering different solutions among which the best are chosen, will actually get there. The GET TO WORK mindset can cause just as many problems as it solves. Think about those intrepid souls that decided to get to work on new hole 13 at PC and took down those little fledgling pines in the fairway. I'm sure many of wish they had thought about what they were about to do and hadn't just gotten to work first.

Also, admitting that people aren't brought into work days or invited for specific reasons (like the one in the previous paragraph) is the exact sort of elitism I was critiquing in my original post. If we want people to show up and help out people need to be welcome. We can't be, nor should we be, selective about who gets invited. I understand what Tom's original goal was though I'm not sure it was the best way to go about it. But that isn't the point of any of this. Like in golf that shot is gone by. the only thing we can do is worry about the next one we have to make, and that seems to be attendance at course-improving events.
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: The Bird Father on April 23, 2013, 08:46:28 AM
Tom: It wasn't the point of my post to elicit an apology or even to blame you for anything. I was just using things from my personal experience that I thought proved the points I was trying to make. Also, Andy is the one who broke the news on Facebook.

Andy: I'm not saying the lack of tools is the ONLY reason for not showing up to a work day, I'm saying it is a contributing factor. There isn't one simple reason people choose not to show up, often it is a plethora of many small reasons, among which is being forced to stand there and say "what if" because you don't have any tools to actually help contribute.

And let me take a minute to address this "what if" and "why not this" situation. If a work day, when things are actually getting changed and decisions have to be made, isn't the time to do it then when is? I have and will continue to be a supporter of some crowd-sourcing designs. I think, obviously, that one or two people have to be the main decision makers but we have enough talented players in this city who have played enough courses that they should be asked what they think about changes or new holes. We are trying to create/provide the highest quality golf possible and while it is entirely possible one designer could get there on his/her own it is more likely that a group of people, offering different solutions among which the best are chosen, will actually get there. The GET TO WORK mindset can cause just as many problems as it solves. Think about those intrepid souls that decided to get to work on new hole 13 at PC and took down those little fledgling pines in the fairway. I'm sure many of wish they had thought about what they were about to do and hadn't just gotten to work first.

Also, admitting that people aren't brought into work days or invited for specific reasons (like the one in the previous paragraph) is the exact sort of elitism I was critiquing in my original post. If we want people to show up and help out people need to be welcome. We can't be, nor should we be, selective about who gets invited. I understand what Tom's original goal was though I'm not sure it was the best way to go about it. But that isn't the point of any of this. Like in golf that shot is gone by. the only thing we can do is worry about the next one we have to make, and that seems to be attendance at course-improving events.

Not trying to argue....just "speaking the truth".  And as far as "Getting to work"..you can't roll vandals and workers up in one ball and call it a mindset...it just doesn't make sense....or cents...haha

...perspective is a very hard topic to put into words....no...hard to understand...in written words.

Another "hard truth" 70% of the people you see getting dirty on the course, actually working, do not read/care about this forum.

Notice: None of the above statements are personal attacks, just opinions of a "worker".
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: The Bird Father on April 23, 2013, 08:59:03 AM
Can you imagine if all the effort on this forum to make people "feel better" about not making work days was actually put into.....wait for it......WORK DAYS.
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: coops on April 23, 2013, 09:07:50 AM
Quote
Not trying to argue....just "speaking the truth".  And as far as "Getting to work"..you can't roll vandals and workers up in one ball and call it a mindset.

It is also an assumption that they weren't thinking themselves workers when they did it. Just because from the viewpoint of the people who helped design and build the hole and take care of the course their work was the action of vandals does not mean they didn't suppose themselves to be doing something for the greater good. Obviously we could talk about the people who destroy tee-signs as vandals, and those that graffiti the baskets, but people who cut down trees to make clearer or easier lines are not the same. That difference and that assumption is why I feel comfortable calling it a mindset.

Quote
Another "hard truth" 70% of the people you see getting dirty on the course, actually working, do not read/care about this forum.

I don't understand this point. Just because many people who do a lot of work at the courses don't read or use the forum doesn't mean it can't be a valuable tool for increasing participation and communication of work days. If anything, I would read into this that there needs to be more effort and organization to prepare for work days and to get the most people out to make a difference.

Quote
Notice: None of the above statements are personal attacks, just opinions of a "worker".

Didn't take it that way. I think there can be hearty discussion and heavy disagreement with no interpersonal ramifications. I think debate and argument, which often have a negative connotation, can be some of the most fruitful ways to contribute to the ideas that make us who we are. Arguing is good for us. It helps us test the truth and to determine the best path.
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: coops on April 23, 2013, 09:18:55 AM
Can you imagine if all the effort on this forum to make people "feel better" about not making work days was actually put into.....wait for it......WORK DAYS.

I don't mean to be nit-picky. I really don't, but this doesn't make any sense.

1. It isn't like we can 'bottle' this effort on forums and just use it at a later time.
2. It is absurd to think that by me actively thinking about how to make work days more accessible and welcoming to the variety of members of the KCFDC I am not contributing. It isn't like I'm going to go work on a course at 9AM on a Tuesday when its raining/sleeting and in the low 30s.
3. I may be missing it but I'm not seeing anything that is trying to make people "feel better" about not showing up for work days. I think that characterizing this discussion that way is making a straw man of my arguments.
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: The Bird Father on April 23, 2013, 09:22:07 AM
Can you imagine if all the effort on this forum to make people "feel better" about not making work days was actually put into.....wait for it......WORK DAYS.
3. I may be missing it but I'm not seeing anything that is trying to make people "feel better" about not showing up for work days. I think that characterizing this discussion that way is making a straw man of my arguments.

Looks like you got a busy day ahead of you then....   ;D
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: mikedopen on April 23, 2013, 09:37:46 AM
did someone say personal attacks. Was that my cue? ::)
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: jack on April 23, 2013, 09:42:33 AM
Ownership and pride comes from within.  You are both right, it takes very little to improve the course as you play it.  Rocks along the fairway will help, picking up trash helps.  There was very little trash last night at cliff, it was nice.

Until though we can get that ownership and unity I find it hard.  I will start to work on better announcements of workdays at leagues that I am playing (when I have time, or ask those directors running leagues to announce it for me) better visibility at the Marquee's.  I am going to be making a sign today to post in the Cliff that looks like a Help Wanted sign.....then announces the dates, and what needs to be done at this course in particular. 

I think that everyone has a fine opinion, and Cooper, you may not realize this but Cliff was designed by many years of temporary set ups initially.  I took input from players and other designers, infact I begged for it.  Same at Blue Valley....I will probably do the same at Hodge Park when I get done with the clearing there by the city for the course, but the issue on that land is that once it is cleared, hey, it is what we have.  Hidden Valley the constraints were from the park design manager......to name a few.

You can't, and nor would I want to have "seasoned" players design a course, you will end up with a course that is only for them.  There is a balance, and we are "making big courses" today in many parks that will turn off the newer player.  I understand, "we have a ton of smaller courses already" mentality that you feel, but here we are with over 30 courses in the area, and only 300+ in the club.  When we had 5 courses we had 150+ in the club....so do the math, we are missing people joining the club, and that "elitist" mindset has much to do with people not comfortable coming on a course with 400' shots and 2 dog legs to get there.

The next courses at Cliff will be nice and play in our game of design skill, but there will also be a nice little course for people to start out on as well.

Bottom line, PRIDE, OWNERSHIP, DETERMINATION to make it better comes from within.  I worked for a few years on courses in town before I realized that organization was needed to make it impactful.  I still work on courses now without telling people and screaming to the world.  Am I working on the courses when I sit in front of my computer and write grants, send notes to the local civic leaders about our sport?  I am, I am doing what I can to help, and I realize I enjoy it more than most.  All I am asking and what i was attempting to start was a way to make those of you reading this that working for a couple of hours a month on a course in unison with others collectively will be more impactful, so please step up and help.
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: jack on April 23, 2013, 09:44:05 AM
did someone say personal attacks. Was that my cue? ::)
(http://www.taquitos.net/im/sn/Sterzings-PC.jpg)
Now go back to watching!
 ;) ;D
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: mikedopen on April 23, 2013, 09:52:19 AM
Mmmmm... ok
did someone say personal attacks. Was that my cue? ::)
(http://www.taquitos.net/im/sn/Sterzings-PC.jpg)
Now go back to watching!
 ;) ;D
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: Loomis on April 23, 2013, 11:19:02 AM
Everyone has their own particular way of being involved and not everyone can be a "work day" sort of volunteer. What may seem like a relatively simple act to some may not be to another. Time issues, physical limitations, anxieties about what is involved. Some people do a little. Some do a lot. Some do things that others can't. I know I can't do what Timko or Jack can do with the paperwork and number crunching; or what Utz does with the website. For some people, a work day getting dirty might be more palatable - and I respect that, but it's not for everyone. I think a lot of frustration comes from the fact that not enough people want to do the dirty work. But not everyone wants to do the number crunching either. Not everyone wants to go to a city board meeting.

But let's keep this on the manual labor side of things.

So how do you motivate someone to want to take their free time and go out and work? This is generally a time they set aside for playing disc golf or do something else in their life. So you have to ask them to take their disc golfing "time" and head out to pick up trash, clear brush, etc. How do you get someone to leave the discs at home and come out and work instead? Obviously asking them does very little. Berating their lack of effort does even less. Of the hundreds of players in our area - most of whom who are not actively involved with the club outside of the occasional league, or a mild curiosity when they visit this site - how do you get ten of them to give back to the club they may not feel a part of? Most recreational players seem to think that the parks departments do the work. Disc golf volunteering is a labor of love and it's its own reward. But when a sport is designed as a quick-fix/self-rewarding/almost cost free diversion from the day; how do you convince the players to invest in the long term salvation of that view?

Most people love the sport as a pleasant diversion. When it becomes work, it won't be a pleasant diversion. Many people don't want to run the risk of losing that.

Maybe the club brass would be willing to discuss work hours on the courses in lieu of club dues. Perhaps that would motivate people.



Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: coops on April 23, 2013, 11:58:29 AM
Everyone has their own particular way of being involved and not everyone can be a "work day" sort of volunteer. What may seem like a relatively simple act to some may not be to another. Time issues, physical limitations, anxieties about what is involved. Some people do a little. Some do a lot. Some do things that others can't. I know I can't do what Timko or Jack can do with the paperwork and number crunching; or what Utz does with the website. For some people, a work day getting dirty might be more palatable - and I respect that, but it's not for everyone. I think a lot of frustration comes from the fact that not enough people want to do the dirty work. But not everyone wants to do the number crunching either. Not everyone wants to go to a city board meeting.

But let's keep this on the manual labor side of things.

So how do you motivate someone to want to take their free time and go out and work? This is generally a time they set aside for playing disc golf or do something else in their life. So you have to ask them to take their disc golfing "time" and head out to pick up trash, clear brush, etc. How do you get someone to leave the discs at home and come out and work instead? Obviously asking them does very little. Berating their lack of effort does even less. Of the hundreds of players in our area - most of whom who are not actively involved with the club outside of the occasional league, or a mild curiosity when they visit this site - how do you get ten of them to give back to the club they may not feel a part of? Most recreational players seem to think that the parks departments do the work. Disc golf volunteering is a labor of love and it's its own reward. But when a sport is designed as a quick-fix/self-rewarding/almost cost free diversion from the day; how do you convince the players to invest in the long term salvation of that view?

Most people love the sport as a pleasant diversion. When it becomes work, it won't be a pleasant diversion. Many people don't want to run the risk of losing that.

Maybe the club brass would be willing to discuss work hours on the courses in lieu of club dues. Perhaps that would motivate people.

It is times like this we need a 'like' button so I can bug someone about putting on a 'love' button. Great analysis, Loomis!
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: coops on April 23, 2013, 12:55:41 PM
Quote
The club has not been promoting its primary purpose to the public.  Putting on leagues or hosting the KCWO is not the clubs primary purpose.  Though it certainly appears that way, doesn't it? As mentioned, most casual golfers think the P&R for their course do everything. The public has no idea what the club (membership) has done and continues to do to further the growth of disc golf in the area. The public does not understand that the club (membership) spear heads developing new courses, course maintenance and course improvements.  I feel the club can and should increase community awareness as to what the KCFDC is really all about. 

I'm not trying to be snarky, funny, or whatever else, but what is the point of the club then? I am a member and I have no idea what the point is. If you had asked me I would have said leagues, KCWO, and club championships, probably in that order. I know course maintenance is in there on a lot of courses but I thought that was an ancillary goal to the others.
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: coops on April 23, 2013, 01:07:31 PM
Quote
Until though we can get that ownership and unity I find it hard.  I will start to work on better announcements of workdays at leagues that I am playing (when I have time, or ask those directors running leagues to announce it for me) better visibility at the Marquee's.  I am going to be making a sign today to post in the Cliff that looks like a Help Wanted sign.....then announces the dates, and what needs to be done at this course in particular. 

Excellent.

Quote
You can't, and nor would I want to have "seasoned" players design a course, you will end up with a course that is only for them.  There is a balance, and we are "making big courses" today in many parks that will turn off the newer player.

I'm willing to have this argument till I'm blue in the face. Every course in the city is friendly to beginning players EXCEPT big Blue, which has its own flaws and is hard to even consider with the rest. I think there is a huge misunderstanding when it comes to courses that are hard and courses that are long for the sake of long. It is entirely possible to have a 200' hole be the hardest hole on the course just as it is possible that a 500' is the easiest.

It is also pure lack of ingenuity that says that a course has to be for beginners or experts. Look at Charlotte and all of their wonderful courses. They are some of the hardest in the world, but they also have entirely different layouts on the same piece of land that allows everyone to enjoy. Look at Maple Hill, same thing. Look at Wilbur Young, same thing.

Quote
When we had 5 courses we had 150+ in the club....so do the math, we are missing people joining the club, and that "elitist" mindset has much to do with people not comfortable coming on a course with 400' shots and 2 dog legs to get there.

Number of courses to club membership is a poor metric for determining course usage. If you go to Rosedale, Swope, Prairie Center, Shawnee Mission, Water Works, or almost any other course on a nice day you will see the courses jam packed with players. How many of them know what the club is? How many of them know how the courses got there? And, most importantly, how many of them are having fun?

The reality is that the club has done a poor job showing why it is important and being visible to these players. They enjoy the fruits of our labor, as well they should, but don't know who convinced the city to build the course, who designed it, or that there is even a club in the city!

Course usage is what needs to be considered when looking at how we build and design courses, and we cannot be afraid to dream big and to make championship style designs. With ingenuity they will be fun for all. And if they aren't? Then they will be fun for the 300+ players in the KCFDC and the hundreds of players who still view KC as a mecca of disc golf and make the pilgrimage here ever Spring and Summer.
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: john theiss on April 23, 2013, 01:29:24 PM
 I want folks to know that Liberty will be having work days every weekend  till we open this place up.I will start posting what time and what date under GENERAL BANTER- LIBERTY WORK DAYS.   If you are interested in helping with tee pa/pin locations and practice throwing the course, moving debris, cutting out roots with loppers  left from the brush hog, spraying ivy, etc please let me know.  i go out and work every TR because my wife has class and i get the free pass. i am also up there every wknd on Sat or Sun, sometimes both.   I have always tried to get other players involved in the design process.  Dickie P and Daniel Loomis have been out to walk the park with me. i also asked Jack.  Most of the route was laid out beforehand(but can change), but both guys have made tremendous recommendations that will make this park so much better.  Sometimes once the route is set, there are minor changes that can be made and sometimes major, but most routes do not get altered too much.  one person has to pick the best route out that offers greatest holes.  i appreciate feedback and would love get a group of players out to Liberty to throw the course.  We also need help out there working. some holes have only been rough cut and there is much debris that can be moved by hand.  just moving debris would be a huge help.  their park dept is pretty small and it would mean a great deal for us to go out and clean up some holes. when i am out cutting, it would be so nice to have extra hands pulling or for me to pull and someone else cut.  you do not need 15 chainsaws out there working.  One good mid-grade saw and one sharp chain will cut out a line in a few hours.  after you  drop a tree though it needs to be cut up, moved and pushed off to the side.  i also have a couple back pack sprayers and chemicals and would be glad to educate anyone on what ivy looks like.  Spraying for ivy is huge and saves the park guys tons of labor hours.  If you would like to help in anyone at Liberty, please email me at jtheiss@bssd.net. This course is really coming along and will please all levels of players.  I am pushing hard for multiple pads so all can enjoy.  Wind, woods, water, elevation-it has it all.
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: coops on April 23, 2013, 02:16:03 PM
Thanks Tracy! I had never seen our mission statement before. I like that writing a lot and am glad to be a part of that club.

Quote
I've always said the club should hold more clinics for the general public. Put on a kids summer camp for a week. Take some of that ever growing bank account money and put it into the community the club is supposed to be growing.

Totally. I think there are a lot of cool outreach opportunities like the Boy Scouts that camp out at Lakeside or Wyco that would be cool to get hooked up with. I'm not so great at organizing but if someone gets something going or has connections definitely let me know. I would love to teach some new players the basics and to get them introduced to this great game.
Sidenote: I know some of this stuff has happened in the past but has conflicted with tournaments or is wayyyy on the other side of the city for me. Given enough warning it is something that I would love to do though. I know last year when Rick asked me to come out to the RAC to give some tips I had a great time and hopefully gave a few useful pointers to the players that I saw.

Quote
complete side step:  Maybe the church found out what a great job the club has been doing reclaiming Cliff over the years and wanted to contribute.  was was their story?

I'm curious about this too. I still want to send them a thank you email and I think it would be cool if others would as well. That sort of appreciation isn't what they're after, I know, but it would certainly let them know that we liked the area they chose to work in and might even lead to a cool partnership.
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: dickthediscparker on April 23, 2013, 02:41:52 PM
The Church group was one that Timko is affiliated with.
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: jack on April 23, 2013, 02:43:25 PM
Quote
complete side step:  Maybe the church found out what a great job the club has been doing reclaiming Cliff over the years and wanted to contribute.  was was their story?
I'm curious about this too. I still want to send them a thank you email and I think it would be cool if others would as well. That sort of appreciation isn't what they're after, I know, but it would certainly let them know that we liked the area they chose to work in and might even lead to a cool partnership.

Why?  Why would you a non-member of their church that wasn't there that isn't a person on the BoD send a note or need to?  There is a proper place and time to do things, and I am confused as to why YOU would feel the need to do so on behalf of a course that you play on?  Should we have you send notes to all the organizations that have helped within the parks over the past year?  I can think of at least 5 in Blue Valley alone.  I can think of 7 for Cliff Drive.  Why should we single this group out, and more importantly why should you do this?

I am not meaning to pick on you Cooper (a little mind you, because it is of course in my nature) but I would not want someone that professed in a comment earlier in the day that they "didn't know" the point of the club would be sending a thank you letter about an area that you may visit a total of (generous here) 10 times in a year.  I don't think that shows good taste at all, and sends a conflicting message.

As for courses, you aren't going to get me to think that all the courses in town are beginner friendly, they aren't.  Cliff Drive isn't, SMP isn't, Swope, and Rosedale in short placements is....Olathe used to be, but isn't as much.  Theiss has done a good job on working that in at his course so far, but clearly it isn't a course for the "big players" based on the Wide Open feedback from many, so that would consitute a friendly "tweaner" course in my mind, which lends itself to beginner friendly certainly.  I haven't played the Birdland, no idea...WyCo-C'mon, not even close to beginner friendly.  You aren't thinking about a new player that if lucky can throw it 100', which is what a new player is.

As for Charlotte, many of their courses wouldn't be there in today's age due to safety concerns.....so it's not a fair comparison.  We work and always have worked with local P&R at ensuring things made sense for the future.  We will continue to do so, at least those of us that work with the P&R at making things happen.  Not everyone that does that is even a member of the club.

As for the Club's mission, more clinics, more events, those are again time away issues, if we plan it who will show up?  I did that for years, was part of the WIN Camp, and you know what it was tough to get people to come and help.  A few people did, but not enough.

As for % of players in the club with courses....Really dude?  What other analogy makes sense.  We had at the start of the millennium 30 Club members/Course, now we have 10?  How is that not a direct correlation?

As far as it goes, Loomis I do see the work that others do not in the blood/sweat/equity as well.  I get that people do things on the fringes that help the club, and I am not bashing them.  I am simply calling out people that do nothing but give advice and pointers and then walk on by or ignore it and go to another course.

Tracy is right, it is a labor of love, and I think that comes with Pride.  I like to think of the disc golf courses as our own backyards, and how we present them is important to me.  This is why I feel confident in my comments about my stance.  I have worked in the fields, behind the scenes, and in the grass to help over the years.  I just think that when I read/hear:
I'm not trying to be snarky, funny, or whatever else, but what is the point of the club then? I am a member and I have no idea what the point is. If you had asked me I would have said leagues, KCWO, and club championships, probably in that order. I know course maintenance is in there on a lot of courses but I thought that was an ancillary goal to the others.
It ticks me off that you think you have a strong grasp of what this really is about and are able to speak about it in the right context.

Now Coop, realize of course that I am pointing this out because you put it out there.  I am CONFIDENT, that you are not alone in this line of thinking, so I am not trying to bash you specifically, but all the folks that think that they know best, but don't get it.

There is more work done than most imagine and realize.  That is a failure on part of the club, but the club is this:
A loosely organized group of volunteers with the notion of making our sport legitimate in the eyes of the nonplaying casual person/golfer.  People in here aren't the problem, the people in here have the bug, they get it.

So I try to chide them into a gut wrenching fiasco of guilt! ;D

I know that this comes out harder than I imagine it to be, and suffice it to say it appears that I am bashing Coop.  Reality, only bashing him for the thought that he needs to send a letter, the other information is that he put himself out here, and he isn't alone, so it's not just at Cooper on this, it is at you reading this if you aren't part of the solution and working towards the betterment of the sport actually.

Coop again I know you have good thoughts and desires about this sport, and I appreciate you putting it out there, this is just my stance and of course subject to ridicule and extremism as much as I give.  Collectively we all agree something has to give.

Tracy, they did make some banners that I put up on my marquee, I think that Mike Petrin should have some that indicate the role that the KCFDC plays within the parks as well!
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: robm on April 23, 2013, 04:00:01 PM
What's wrong with saying 'Thank you'?

Thanks for the beers at GBO.

Thanks for showing up at league last night when you didn't feel like it (Donny too  ;))

Thanks to Andy for his lower numbered leather tag.

Thanks to my momma for having me.

Thanks to my mother-in-law for the $ to register for GBO.

Thanks to my boss for hiring me and giving me a second chance when I couldn't get an interview after being wrongfully fired from my last job.

It is a good spiritual discipline to be thankful, even if you are not spiritual.  I forget this a lot.
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: robm on April 23, 2013, 04:02:30 PM
Cooper - contact both churches and find out which one did the deed.  I'll send them a note as well.
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: jack on April 23, 2013, 04:15:26 PM
You guys don't get it.

Thanking them isn't the issue, the issue is, is it your place to do so?  And why should you do it only to them because I pointed them out this week?  Why not send a note to all the places/organizations just over the last year that helped in the parks.

They are not the issue here...but I digress I feel that it won't matter.

I do know this though.  This is the last year that I am doing the Wide Open......so whomever turns the key will have to run with it next year and do as they see fit to make this work.

I will do as I can to help where I can, but my time helping locally is diminishing, and my time helping where I want to is going to be growing.
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: Jake B on April 23, 2013, 04:16:35 PM
You can't, and nor would I want to have "seasoned" players design a course, you will end up with a course that is only for them.  There is a balance, and we are "making big courses" today in many parks that will turn off the newer player.  I understand, "we have a ton of smaller courses already" mentality that you feel, but here we are with over 30 courses in the area, and only 300+ in the club.  When we had 5 courses we had 150+ in the club....so do the math, we are missing people joining the club, and that "elitist" mindset has much to do with people not comfortable coming on a course with 400' shots and 2 dog legs to get there.

This is one of the most ludicrous paragraphs I've ever read on here. To assume a pro wouldn't have really good ideas for course design or that they would only think of their game in the design is asinine. Some of the best courses in the country have been designed by "seasoned pros" and are appropriate for all levels of play.
To say that there are 30+ courses in the area is not a very accurate. Currently I see 11 courses on the forum that the club affiliates with, so the growth ratio is actually close to normal.
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: ekolk on April 23, 2013, 04:34:46 PM
This thread sums it all up. A bunch of people with opinions, a few with facts, and poor communication and misunderstandings.

The mission statement was the first thing I worked on the board to provide a focus for all to work towards. Yet, we have a lot more to do with the old leadership and new in this organization. Cooper, I know you live in Lawrence but I could see getting involved at that level. My two cents.

The bottom line is to do the work and communicate with the CC's, hence, the club. If we want to be a leading organization we have act like one and keep our online personalities with our face-to-face personalities.
This topic is very informative and I thank Cooper for his insightful responses. Now that we have espoused our solutions let's get done what needs to be done.  In other words, this is still talk, important, but still talk.
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: Mike Hyzer on April 23, 2013, 05:00:02 PM
One good mid-grade saw and one sharp chain will cut out a line in a few hours.

Yeah, one of your lines, maybe. Like #2 and #14 at Young-- those ain't lines, those are spaces where a disc might fly through if the thrower is lucky. ;D
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: coops on April 23, 2013, 05:46:53 PM
You can't, and nor would I want to have "seasoned" players design a course, you will end up with a course that is only for them.  There is a balance, and we are "making big courses" today in many parks that will turn off the newer player.  I understand, "we have a ton of smaller courses already" mentality that you feel, but here we are with over 30 courses in the area, and only 300+ in the club.  When we had 5 courses we had 150+ in the club....so do the math, we are missing people joining the club, and that "elitist" mindset has much to do with people not comfortable coming on a course with 400' shots and 2 dog legs to get there.

This is one of the most ludicrous paragraphs I've ever read on here. To assume a pro wouldn't have really good ideas for course design or that they would only think of their game in the design is asinine. Some of the best courses in the country have been designed by "seasoned pros" and are appropriate for all levels of play.
To say that there are 30+ courses in the area is not a very accurate. Currently I see 11 courses on the forum that the club affiliates with, so the growth ratio is actually close to normal.

Yep.
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: coops on April 23, 2013, 06:00:59 PM
Quote
Why?  Why would you a non-member of their church that wasn't there that isn't a person on the BoD send a note or need to?  There is a proper place and time to do things, and I am confused as to why YOU would feel the need to do so on behalf of a course that you play on?  Should we have you send notes to all the organizations that have helped within the parks over the past year?  I can think of at least 5 in Blue Valley alone.  I can think of 7 for Cliff Drive.  Why should we single this group out, and more importantly why should you do this?

This pisses me off more than I think my words can do justice. I'm not talking about sending them an effing tax-deductible receipt thanking them for their work and providing them with out tax-id I'm talking about an email to the Church that says "Hey, I heard you guys were out helping to clean up Cliff Drive. I just wanted you to know that that means a lot to me and I'm grateful for you."

How does that overstep my bounds? Do I have to have BoD clearance to say thanks? Do I have to have put in 3 bajillion effing hours in KC disc golf to get to be thankful?

Here's all I can say: I was raised to say thank you when someone did something for me. When the waitress brings another glass of water, when a stranger holds the door, and when a group of one hundred volunteers shows up to a park they may or may not use to pick up used needles, condoms, a bag of once frozen chicken, car tires, 7-11 cups and whatever other filth the denizens of Kansas City have felt they needed to dump there.

This is the EXACT sort of special elitism that runs absolutely rampant and makes many people not want to show up. The audacity to suggest that I cannot feel and express gratitude for someone doing something laudable is laughable at best and malicious and self-serving at worst.

To think, this whole thread could've simply said how awesome it was to see so many people out helping out the city and to encourage people on here to do the same. It had to turn into a semi-public shaming and progress from there. I think ideas have been brought forth that are valuable and I hope action is taken on them.
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: coops on April 23, 2013, 06:06:00 PM
Quote
I am not meaning to pick on you Cooper (a little mind you, because it is of course in my nature) but I would not want someone that professed in a comment earlier in the day that they "didn't know" the point of the club would be sending a thank you letter about an area that you may visit a total of (generous here) 10 times in a year.  I don't think that shows good taste at all, and sends a conflicting message.

Doesn't it show a failure of the club that a person who has been actively playing (just a guess, I'm not going to try to count) 50+ leagues a year doesn't know the mission statement? I don't feel bad for not knowing. When was I supposed to find out? If I'd gone to a BoD meeting would we have all had to stand and put our hands over our hearts while we professed our loyalty?

And, how is whether I know the mission statement and recite it in reverse order going to dictate, IN THE LEAST, my ability to say thank you? I'll help you out there, it isn't.
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: coops on April 23, 2013, 06:10:43 PM
Sorry for the rapid-fire posting. I don't like multi-quoting and mixing the ideas in each post. Too much can get lost there.

Next point.

Quote
As for Charlotte, many of their courses wouldn't be there in today's age due to safety concerns.....so it's not a fair comparison.  We work and always have worked with local P&R at ensuring things made sense for the future.  We will continue to do so, at least those of us that work with the P&R at making things happen.  Not everyone that does that is even a member of the club.

They are there. I went there two years ago and played Renny and Elon and Reedy. I missed Hornet's Nest, I didn't have a car of my own so I was limited but at least two years ago they were still there, with 'today's... safety concerns'.

And specifically, which course, and which holes do you think violate some creedo of safety and would be disallowed in our city? I would love to look up those holes, watch video and look at pictures, and have an intelligent discussion about it but I'm not going to argue against nonspecific examples.
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: coops on April 23, 2013, 06:21:10 PM
Quote
As for % of players in the club with courses....Really dude?  What other analogy makes sense.  We had at the start of the millennium 30 Club members/Course, now we have 10?  How is that not a direct correlation?

You're missing the point. I'm saying that the number of players in the club to number of courses in the city isn't correlated. I think it would be foolish to claim that the number of players hasn't increased at least steadily with the number of places to play but players are not the same as club members.

Again, it is a failure of the club, not a failure of the design of the courses.

And if you want to talk specifically I'm sure you'd point out that we have BV and not very many people play there and not that many people play cliff either but let's look at those two examples specifically.

BV, while I will concede it is not a beginner-friendly course, is also the epitome of why a beginner would not play a course. It is hard only because it is long and the pins are on slopes. Do you think the beginners mind the pins on slopes? I doubt it. What they mind is that he course is long and there isn't any demand for anything they might be good at. Let's compare say hole (really almost any hole at BV, they are all long and open, right?) to a hole that I don't remember the number of in Des Moines at Walnut Ridge if memory serves. The hole is over 500' long and through a tunnel. It is very hard to get a three or four on the hole for anyone, let alone a beginner, but you can't make me believe that when they see me throw it 150' and smash a tree and they throw 100' and end up in the fairway that they aren't enjoying themselves. We need to provide something besides length to increase challenge.

I don't even feel like arguing about Cliff. A beginner could have a lot of fun on the front side and absolutely hate the back, but guess what, if they want to leave after 10 they are right back by their car. I don't know many people that I've taken out for their first time that want to play a full 18 anyway. A beginner playing the backside would probably just as soon jump into the reservoir than finish out though because almost all that is required after 10 is length and putting.

Quote
SMP isn't

Have you ever played SMP? There are always casual/beginner types out there. I guess those players just don't know what is best for them and need to go up to Rosey and pray it is in shorts or they are just not going to have ANY fun out there.
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: jack on April 24, 2013, 08:23:41 AM
Quote
Why?  Why would you a non-member of their church that wasn't there that isn't a person on the BoD send a note or need to?  There is a proper place and time to do things, and I am confused as to why YOU would feel the need to do so on behalf of a course that you play on?  Should we have you send notes to all the organizations that have helped within the parks over the past year?  I can think of at least 5 in Blue Valley alone.  I can think of 7 for Cliff Drive.  Why should we single this group out, and more importantly why should you do this?

This pisses me off more than I think my words can do justice. I'm not talking about sending them an effing tax-deductible receipt thanking them for their work and providing them with out tax-id I'm talking about an email to the Church that says "Hey, I heard you guys were out helping to clean up Cliff Drive. I just wanted you to know that that means a lot to me and I'm grateful for you."

How does that overstep my bounds? Do I have to have BoD clearance to say thanks? Do I have to have put in 3 bajillion effing hours in KC disc golf to get to be thankful?

Here's all I can say: I was raised to say thank you when someone did something for me. When the waitress brings another glass of water, when a stranger holds the door, and when a group of one hundred volunteers shows up to a park they may or may not use to pick up used needles, condoms, a bag of once frozen chicken, car tires, 7-11 cups and whatever other filth the denizens of Kansas City have felt they needed to dump there.

This is the EXACT sort of special elitism that runs absolutely rampant and makes many people not want to show up. The audacity to suggest that I cannot feel and express gratitude for someone doing something laudable is laughable at best and malicious and self-serving at worst.

My point is why them?  AGAIN, WHY THIS ORGANIZATION?  Why not all the other organizations?  Had I not mentioned word ONE about this group, would you be doing it?  Would you be reaching out to them?  That is what I am saying.  To me that is offensive to say, oh Jack mentioned you about helping so I want to thank you.  That is what you are saying is ok.

There is NOTHING wrong with thanking organizations that help within the parks that we work on, but I don't get why you feel it is ok on this group, and ignoring the others.  Haven't heard how you think that is ok.  I get that you feel that you should, but again is it your place?  Were you there when they opened the door?  Do you stop and thank the people walking in and out of a store holding a door for someone else?  Same premise on that.

Here is what I was attempting to say on this thread.....we need more help on the courses, and we need more ownership.  It is that simple.  There are over 30 courses Jake, this isn't just about KCFDC courses and affliations, it has to do with in 2000 we had Rosedale (2) Swope, WW, Olathe, California Trail, Lawrence, and WyCo just went in.....to play on, now we have over ~30, do I need to count them?  ;D

As for pro-designing courses, I am not saying it is a horrible thing, and I think that input from all levels of play are good, but at times a pro-level player isn't taking into consideration the level of play at the introductory level.  As for SMP, of course there are a ton of people out there, it is the busiest park in the area, it still doesn't mean that this is a beginner friendly course.  I think of P-Hill when it first went in as a beginner friendly course...~4800-5200, SMP was closer to 6000 at first....yes you can have a fun course that is long, I get that, but the ability to not feel inept is what will bring many back. 

It may be a failure of the club in regards to the # of players, but what have you (meaning every club member, not Cooper) done to encourage and exploit what the club does while you are on the course?

Club members are the biggest advocates for the club, and if you don't know understand what the club is about, is that a failure of the club, or is it your own inability to find out?  You are right there is a need for better communication, but how many in here even go to the webpage of the club?  Have you looked at the redesigned web page where this information is, or do you just come to the forums?

We aren't on CNN/KCTV5, Fox4.....we are the people playing, and we need to let people know that we are the group that does things.  Playing leagues helps with the club, but it doesn't fix the issues.  That was the reasoning for the topic, it has taken on a life of its own, and although has ups and downs, it has some great merit for conversation points on better ways to help.
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: coops on April 24, 2013, 08:50:18 AM
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My point is why them?  AGAIN, WHY THIS ORGANIZATION?  Why not all the other organizations?  Had I not mentioned word ONE about this group, would you be doing it?  Would you be reaching out to them?  That is what I am saying.  To me that is offensive to say, oh Jack mentioned you about helping so I want to thank you.  That is what you are saying is ok.

I fail to see how it is 'offensive' to thank a group and find it repulsive to suggest so.

Do you really want to know why I haven't said we should thank other groups? Because I've never heard of another group doing work on our courses. I think it is a damn shame that we don't thank every group with a simple email from some KCFDC members, personal contact (like you did out there), or maybe even a card saying thanks that people who show up for league or a tournament sign.

We want to encourage synergistic relationships with organizations like this and I think the best way to do that is to let them know that we appreciate their work. Maybe then, next time they are looking for an activity or a place of service, they'll contact the KCFDC to see what sort of work they could do. We don't want them in a position where they think the work they did wasn't appreciated by more than just a one guy in a hockey jersey.

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There is NOTHING wrong with thanking organizations that help within the parks that we work on, but I don't get why you feel it is ok on this group, and ignoring the others.  Haven't heard how you think that is ok.

We should thank everybody. It seems like you have some sort of agenda that prevents us from thanking this group and I don't get that.

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I get that you feel that you should, but again is it your place?

You're missing the point. I'm not saying it is MY place. I'm saying it is EVERYONE'S place. I am a dues paying member of the KCFDC and if I want to contact a group that I heard was doing good work to say thank you I should not only be allowed to but encouraged to do so. (By the way, I already emailed them because I'm a adult with free-will in America. My message was simple, it expressed gratitude and told them that we appreciated the work they did for our course and the community.)

Furthermore, you haven't addressed the level of clearance you think is needed to say thank you. Do I need to run for the Board to say thanks? Do I need to have my membership card and mini on my person for identification purposes? Do I need to have designed and installed at least 3 courses? Seriously, this is an actual point. I'm not just pointing out the ridiculousness of your position I'm wanting you to clarify what level I need to be to say thanks.

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Do you stop and thank the people walking in and out of a store holding a door for someone else?  Same premise on that.

Do you not say thank you when someone holds a door for you? Or give an appreciative head nod? I do. It doesn't take ANY effort on my part and affirms their actions.

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As for SMP, of course there are a ton of people out there, it is the busiest park in the area, it still doesn't mean that this is a beginner friendly course.

So you're admitting that newer players, unskilled players, and experienced players can all flock to the same course? I guess that sort of destroys your point about designing for the lowest common denominator then, eh?

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.yes you can have a fun course that is long, I get that, but the ability to not feel inept is what will bring many back. 

You have to admit that a feeling of ineptitude is as much a problem of expectation as it is actual results. If a new player weren't told by someone somewhere that a 450' hole was a par three do you think they'd get as upset or feel as ineffectual if they took a 5 or 6 on it? No, they wouldn't. Putting a public par on tee signs (or even the 'helpful hints' like up at Smithville) is a great way to get people to feel better and to keep coming back.

And clinics like the ones that DD is doing are also a great way to get people to feel better about their game. Sure they can watch a player crush a 450' drive down the fairway but in a setting where that player explains how they do it and how long it took them to learn to do it is the critical point. Maybe we should start modelling ourselves after the DDKC store. They do outreach, field testing days, clinics, fun leagues, etc... (And I know you'll say they are trying to do it for a buck and I get that criticism, but they are a business after all. Who is to say that motivation can't both be educational AND profitable.)



Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: jack on April 24, 2013, 09:05:35 AM
you win. 
Title: Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
Post by: coops on April 24, 2013, 09:09:50 AM
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That was the reasoning for the topic, it has taken on a life of its own, and although has ups and downs, it has some great merit for conversation points on better ways to help.

I stand by my point that the good actions of one group should not be used to shame another.

With that caveat I would also like to offer a hearty 'Amen' to your point about the merits of this conversation. We do need to do better, not out of shame, but out of love. Love for our city, love for our courses, and love for each other.

I would like to officially propose that we start thanking people who do work on our courses. We thank them in person if we see them. We thank them electronically if we only hear about it. We thank them with letters if they are Amish and don't use the internet.

If we cultivate an atmosphere of thankfulness and gratitude I'm willing to bet that more people will show up for work days. Not out of fear of Jack's wrath or necessity but because that thankfulness and gratitude will parlay itself into ownership.