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Messages - jack

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Cliff Drive / Re: pulling the course
« on: Today at 09:01:27 AM »
Times always change but the notion that there are too many self entitled individuals that don't get that WE are the reason the courses are here, not P&R is the main issue.  This course isn't mine, though I may have designed it, and I have influence, it is for everyone.  At no point did I build it with the notion, yeah I can play here and no one else will.  If I wanted to do that, I would have bought land to make that work....

Our courses will continue to deteriorate until people wake up and realize that the only way to maintain courses and improve and advance them is through their own efforts to work and hold the P&R accountable for the work that they can do.  We work in unison to battle and fight, and though you may think that it is bad, it is a thousand times better than when we started.  This is the case on Blue Valley, Cliff Drive, Rosedale, Water Works....etc....  You have to be proactive, and you have to have a sense of pride and ownership, and that is what is lacking in our organization right now in my own mind.  A few get it, and a few continue to push and help, but that few is limited, and shouldn't be the only group of dedicated people for an entire club.

The issue that P&R must maintain the course like they do on a golf course is stupid, and naive.  Our sport and most recently (over the past 15 years I have seen the decline) the people playing is growing, but the assumption that this is maintained by others needs to stop, or we need to pay to play.  You MUST work towards a plan that encompasses a true stewardship for the land, or you must CHARGE people to play.  You pay to play every other sport on their courses within the parks system, softball, baseball, kickball, soccer, all pay league and park fees, we as a club pay a miniscule amount, but nothing along the lines of the other sports.  This is why we get ignored.  We have though in the past shown that we are value added partners to helping the land.  Notifications when things are dumped, issues that need to be corrected, donation of thousands of hours over the years, and that is the issue, those hours are dwindling, and that is the reason for the rant.

We built this disc golf city through the partnerships with the P&R and most of them are aware of our work, and will work with us.  Just as you and others don't want to pick up after others, neither do the P&R, they have more work to do.

The assumption that unless someone else takes care of it is the craziest logic for our sport you can have.

This is why I will be vigilant in the way that I approach P&R and work towards a pay to play system.  I am going to make it my crusade at this point to figure out how to properly enforce it, make it beneficial, and most importantly make our courses better to be used.

Cliff Drive / Re: Expansion-Interested in helping
« on: Today at 08:54:22 AM »
Thanks gain Doug!  You always step up.

Cliff Drive / Re: pulling the course
« on: October 22, 2014, 05:37:24 PM »
You're right Jack.

We are wrong.

Our ideas don't count.

Pull the course, because it is your course.

It's better to have nothing then to set up means to stop the problem.  This is better than the war on drugs.

This is productive.   ::) It is not my course, but all of ours, and asking people to help and show an interest in helping was what started this topic, or rather the lack of interest on the topic of helping.  I guess I am just getting old and jaded in terms of what it takes to call ourselves a community of truly land loving engaged individuals to help maintain our courses, and I am out of touch with the notion that if the city doesn't do the work then why should I mentality.

I have given for the love of the game, and the enticement to turn people on to the sport and help grow it through our partnerships with the cities we live in and close by to help.  I didn't realize that it was their job to take care of "our course".  But if it is MY COURSE, then it is going to be pay to play, and that should keep everyone off right?  I mean it's mine Rob says so.

I also though come from the mold that the term "it's not my job" is the best reason to fire someone on the spot.  The worst thing anyone can say, and spews of entitlement that makes me gag worse than a dead pig on hole #1 at cliff.

Cliff Drive / Re: pulling the course
« on: October 22, 2014, 05:26:29 PM »
It appears your heart is set Jack.

Too bad other thoughtful suggestions were not considered.

1. Dumpsters - lots of them.  All over.  Seriously, like 5 business size dumpsters every 800 feet.  I'm not kidding.
That isn't an option ask the city, I already suggested that to be done at the gates for the park in lieu of the closure of the gates (which won't happen, they will be redirecting traffic to be one way eastbound only, and closing the north lane to open only for pedestrian and bicycle traffic)

2. BIG signs that warn dumping is a crime.  Not the little 8.5" * 11" pathetic signs on actual Cliff Drive, but big 3' by 4' signs with 5" letters that lists the dollar penalty for getting caught dumping trash.  Put them in the actual problem areas on Reservoir Dr,
This is being incorporated with the temporary closure while the above is taken care of on the gates

3. Replace the plastic trash cans when they break so they actually hold trash.
The metal ones get stolen and re-purposed by homeless within the park, which is also being addressed.  Also, where would this money come from as part of our agreement with the city is to maintain and accumulate trash so they can pick it up.  I prefer the pack out what you pack in over trash cans.  The can's on most occasion aren't the issue, the issue is people would rather play than help, that is the crux of the problem.   

Cliff Drive / Re: pulling the course
« on: October 22, 2014, 05:15:07 PM »

Why doesn't the club organize committees to handle certain jurisdictions?
That way people are responsible for their backyard.

You are the CLUB, why aren't you organizing this?  There are over 300 active paid members, and yet only a handful actually do the work.  This is the problem as I see it, and I for one am tired of asking for help only to have my friends and myself work the land.  You wanna know how many club members actually came out to help clean up........less than 1/2 were active members, some were expired members, and many were just friends of mine because they know how I love the course so.

So the issue stands why should I engage my friends to help at disc golf courses, when club members don't show the support for the courses that they should.  Every club member should be spending at least 10 hours a year in a park helping to clean it.  Dedicated time, not playing and picking up trash (though you who do that are awesome, please don't stop).

I am at this point tired of reading about New courses when we can't maintain existing ones. 

Here is the deal.  We agree as an organization to help clean and maintain the parks we have courses in.  Rob's mentality is completely false in "
I'm willing to work at Cliff when Kansas City, MO actually proactively does something to prevent it from being a sh!t hole for the local population. 

That is problem one.  Not accepting that we agreed to help, and guess what, this isn't a suburban landscape.  It is A THOUSAND times better than when we started.  It is MAINTENANCE in keeping it looking better, and yes ILLEGAL dumping happens out here and we have to pick up from the tweakers, the hookers, the hispanics, the white red neck arses, the idiot disc golfers that break bottles, the irresponsible immigrant that doesn't know any better.

Ultimately though it is but a few that step up.  So when I post a note asking if anyone is interested in helping EXPAND cliff......crickets.  So %$#@ it, I am telling the city to pull it.  I am also going to be telling the city to move to a pay to play disc golf environment, because though you pay dues to be a club member, the time has come that you must do more because our sport has grown, and the courses are in crappy shape and nothing is being done.

Start to pay to play and maybe we can replace trees easier than having events with 43 people coming out to "I love that course" how can I help....

It is quite simple, we aren't engaged as we should be as an organization and as stewards to the land.  We don't deserve Cliff Drive, its not the city that doesn't deserve it is the disc golfers that ignore the work it takes to make it better that don't deserve it.

Cliff Drive / Re: pulling the course
« on: October 22, 2014, 05:02:57 PM »
It has been written on here over and over and over....too many courses for too few workers. 

Please - pull the course!  Then maybe the other courses will have more people to work them.


Cliff Drive / Re: pulling the course
« on: October 22, 2014, 01:25:36 PM »
62 views on asking for help in expanding the comments.  So obviously no one wants to help, if we can't help the course, then why battle as I have been.  I can see it is time to pull it based on the lack of communication is what I am saying.

I don't think that anyone has done more to try to work on moving the course than myself.  I installed it, and I guess I will pull it.  It appears to me to be that simple.

I am already feeling as though we have too many courses in the area to clearly "control" as a club.  Trash is unkept in many, workdays are rarely attended except by a few staunch individuals, and the goals of well.....I gotta play a tourney have taken over in KC.

I started to love KC in the 90's because the courses looked great, people cared about it, and they showed up to help.  I haven't seen that, and as such the behind the doors meetings that many of you don't know have happened, the lies by others to me about things within the course and the sheer disregard for comments about the expansion and the need for help generating absolutely any interest leaves me with a screw it attitude.

I have worked and given a lot over the years to help disc golf in KC.  I will work as hard as I ask anyone else to ask, if not more, but I am tired of the lack of support and dedication (with the exception of a few, and you know who you are in my book) to do things in town by many within our community.

Bottom line, there are quite simply too many courses and not enough people willing to do work to keep us at the top from volunteers.  I am not talking about disc golf companies vested interest in their local course, but rather the drive and desire to help within the club to support courses and work to build on making them great, not only your game. 

We have too many users and not enough care takers, as such the time has come in my mind to pull the course and utilize the land for other activities and not worry about it, and have those that do give work within the area that they live instead of driving many miles away to help.

I think it is quite simple, and it should free up others to do more on another course to hopefully help it become better.

Tournaments / Re: Tournaments outside of KC/MO area.
« on: October 22, 2014, 11:27:08 AM »
We are very spoiled in the area.  We have also helped to facilitate others to enjoy that type of environment and watch as they "mirror" them accordingly and grow.

We are very spoiled in the area as a whole, and this expands to the Iowa areas as well.  Des Moines, CR, Quad Cities regionally all put on good events as well.

Cliff Drive / pulling the course
« on: October 22, 2014, 11:23:38 AM »
Expanding it allowed people to talk yet nothing to anyone else was said, so I guess it is just simply time to pull it.  I will work with P&R to let them know.

Tournaments / Re: Paradise 54
« on: October 20, 2014, 12:05:34 PM »
heading to 54 in Vichy....sorry sounds fun up there

Cliff Drive / Expansion-Interested in helping
« on: October 20, 2014, 11:35:28 AM »
Looking to probably expand Cliff in its current configuration to a 24 hole course.  Are you interested in helping?

After many hours of conversation and discussion the realistic footprint is that cliff will remain pretty much the same with expansion to a 24 hole layout.

Will be looking at making current #7 in the short pin vanish.  We will be making the rocks on the right of the fairway OB, and adding more rocks, and trees along that stretch.

#17 will remain as it is, but with more trees, as will #13 and #14.

We will be working on a complete change of the trees coming up with a plan in place.

I have been working diligently at development of a plan that allows the usage of the bike trail and the disc golf course, and I think that all of us agree with the changes that were suggested.  The hope is that this minimizes impact on either of us with the great work that the trails have done in bringing in excitement, and the enjoyment that we have of seeing more people in the park.

Our gem is nice, but to show off the gem is always better.  To know that we have been instrumental in the development and improvements of the park over the past 15 years is also something that we can be proud of.  And finally our ability to engage and work towards a harmonious plan should be cool for us to all enjoy a diverse use of a great green space is wonderful.

Plans look like this:
The 2 new holes-they are partially done, we want to continue to clear it out, plant some dividing trees, and extending them both, initially the first one for the pin, and the pad on the second one.

Beyond hole #4.  Looking to continue around the long placement and wrap around the hillside with a shot about 270-320', then going down the hill a touch and coming back around towards #5 pad.  Initially I have always wanted to have hole #5 pad back further, but in this configuration we will be throwing down the slope of the hill towards it, a tricky placement shot that should be about 250-275' downhill

Beyond #6-going back back back, this hole will gain about 200' going the other direction from current long right placement, with valleys and ravines in place will play very uber technical on the shot.  We will then tee from the woods with a gut line shot about 300' through the woods heading up to the top of the grass to the northside of the road across from the lake.  We will then tee from that part of the land on the northside of the road and go towards current #7 from there.

So we lose short #7, an original hole from the days of past disc golf, we gain a value added partner in continuing to improve and positive activity within the park, and we will see more disc golf holes to play in the park that will create a uniquely interesting challenge to develop a course like very few, and in turn create better disc golfers in KC.

Pay attention as the leaves fall more work will be needed, and I know we can use a lot of help from a lot of people to get this done collectively!

Hey Harold, please post pin positions @Cliff Drive...   ;D

I posted them on the Tourney Thread Doc.  See you manana

1-Original (behind the trees)
6-Long right (tunnel)
7-Middle (Short on hill)
10-Middle (Right)
15-Short (Under tree)
16-Short (Middle of the fairway)
17-Short (New Short behind #18 pad)
18-By the road
Total 6756'

We are tweaking Cliff, I wanted to play the "new holes" but with all the rain, safety first so we are back at the drawing board.  It will be a mix of long and short placements.

Tournaments / Re: KCFDC Championships - October 11-12, 2014
« on: October 13, 2014, 09:43:02 AM »
Thanks for all the help this weekend from so many folks!  Doug Keehler has been doing great out at Blue Valley ( I know he would thank Jim Kreeger as well), Mike Petrin and Van Spratford for helping me with cards and set up.  I do appreciate it so much folks!

Now there was a request at Blue Valley to bring in all the tee signs, we were VERY CLOSE, but someone I am willing to bet grabbed holes #3 and #4 signage and forgot to bring them up to me.  If so, please just reach out to one of the disc golf partners and drop them off.  I will pick them up and return them to the storage.

It all helps, and I am exhausted and beat as I am sure many are.

How many other places in the country WORLD can you get that type of "free tourney" to play on such diverse and challenging courses for just being a part of the club?  We Roc!

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