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Messages - jack

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Cliff Drive / Cliff Drive League 7/21/14
« on: July 21, 2014, 08:47:57 AM »
7-21-14-Try to use new holes #1 and #2 in this format will skip playing #9, #17, #18, play from #17pad to #18, all nickles
7-28-14-Back to all nickels.  Moderate length
Was the initial plan, probably going to move back to the 7/28 format tonight.  Though we did get quite a bit done out there last week (May be able to play the new #1 and #2 BACKWARDS.....) I don't want to get things moving in the wrong direction quite yet.

SO tonight we will be playing nickles from the pads.  I will be moving probably #2, #4, #8(long) #17(peninsula) if I can get out there in time. I hope to be out there by 5:30ish to do this and we want to tee by 6:00, so please be out and bring exact money if you can.

Looking forward to another great night in the hot time of July.

Blue Valley / Re: Earn your Green Frees.
« on: July 21, 2014, 08:42:21 AM »
Kreeger sighting on Van Brunt on my way to Steely Dan, figured he was hard at it on BV last weekend, again that man does SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much that so many of you don't know.......Blue Valley League is in two weeks.  Get ready!

Cliff Drive / Re: Work Day Saturday July 19
« on: July 18, 2014, 11:13:25 AM »
I will be back out there tomorrow if interested in helping out!

Blue Valley / Re: Earn your Green Frees.
« on: July 17, 2014, 01:59:58 PM »
I don't know about that.  I know we used it in an old location when we teed from the shelter house back to it for events, it was one of the first pins.  I would say it is probably ok to yank, but I would ask Jim to be certain.....

Nothing wrong on the #8 movement Scott, to accomplish that feeling on #1 though you may want to think about the short hole #1, and the parking to long #1 though.  #16 as I drove by it last night may need some clearing out.

On #3, I would think just making it OB straight then towards the pin, essentially where bollards used to be as an OB line is a better option, as I indicated my shot anny'd out and hyzer'd back as did another on the card, so we are still playing the fairway on #2 if that is what you are trying to avoid.

The other option would be just go real ROGUE and bring it in to the next pin placement and tighten it and OB it ala Island type and keep a tight pocket, that would force people out, and use the drop zone by the tree if you aren't on the Island from the tee.

Food for thought.  I do appreciate all the work and effort you are putting into this event. 

General Banter / Re: Rules Of Golf
« on: July 17, 2014, 12:23:36 PM »
The 2 Meter RULE is only in effect if the TD states so.

Discretionary rules are rules that may be invoked by the Director without prior approval from the PDGA. Any discretionary rule that is in effect must be announced by the Director prior to the tournament and in the players' meeting.

    If a disc has come to rest above two meters, as measured from the lowest point of the disc to the playing surface directly below it, the player shall be assessed a one-throw penalty. The player shall then proceed in accordance with 802.02.C.
    If the lie directly below the disc on the playing surface is out-of-bounds, the disc is played as out-of-bounds regardless of its height above the playing surface.
    A disc supported by the target is not subject to the two-meter rule.
    If the thrower moves the disc before a determination has been made, the disc is considered to have come to rest above two meters.
    The Director may declare the two-meter rule to be in effect for the entire course, for particular holes, and/or for individual objects.

There should be available resources for the latest rulings.  The removal of the 2-meter rule took effect I believe 3 possibly 4 revisions ago, that made it optional, and MUST be declared by the TD to be in effect.  At the Tree Love Classic at Cliff Drive on Septmebr 13, it will be in effect if he wants to play with it in effect! ;D

I am an AM my comments don't count?

Ok....So the course last night was pretty ok (I HATE MANDOS THOUGH and TEMP HOLES).  so I am going by the tee pad start for the holes on this, not the actual numbering from last night.

#A and #B, something has to give.  I get what is trying to be done, but the notion of playing the first hole as a prime and encouragement to go for aces, then move #1 short, and play from the parking lot to #1 long (adding in a hole to compensate for #4 to #5).  Tee from the parking area circle down the hill there, I think you get the same feeling, and you accomplish the same, EXCEPT you lose that hole #1 long that we all love.  I think that this may be the answer over adding another by #16.
2-great hole
3-UNsure why the Mando is needed, but whatever, just make sure spotters are there as you are forcing people left more in an already lost disc prone left area....silly Mando really....but I get it, you want it tighter.  Instead of a Mando, why not OB it past the tree down the honeysuckle line?  I went past the mando and anny'd out and came back essentially in the same place as if I were throwing the hyzer route.  Tightening it up on the line may be a better answer to make it tougher if that was the goal.....if it was a safety thing, it needs to be further down to impact the Mando....
4 (to middle pin #5) though I played this HORRENDOUSLY, this was a very good hole.  I really enjoyed it but absolutely hated my shot off the tee that went past 5 pad but took forever to find.
7-were there Mando's on this?  If so why, if not, ok, I was tired at this point.  I like this placement on the course for certain.
8-good hole, and the Mando is really driven by safety on this placement.....
9-we need to raise the ceiling here, and we need to be concerned about the "lightning tree" in the middle of the fairway, that is as a whole, not this event, that will die soon enough and be a widow maker if we don't address it.
10-sure about time for a short hole....
11-why the Mando?
12-Again, why the mando?  If it is the park safety, move it closer so you can do other shots, you really limit and force the shots on this one.
14-Fine Mando safety, but really doesn't help much if you throw that way you throw that way...
15-Ugh....really double MANDO that you can't see from the tee....just UGH, this placement is by far one of the worst on the course, and there is NO GREEN as well, you are playing the green on the tee pad for #14, you have to double MANDO the protection, and then you can't get to it by the way you force people to throw unless you hit the 20' gap.  Our card all got 3's, you will probably not see any scoring separation on this hole for the amount of work needed.  You would be better served here to figure out a Double MANDO and use a shorter pin placement....
16-Mando is silly, but OK....
16A-You could clear out the brush across the street and tee from the lower (shorter pin placement) and make a tighter and then more open shot for an additional hole in lieu of the first shot I mentioned from the parking lot.  It would take a few hours of work but I believe that we could clear that out very easily to move ahead appropriately, and leave 8 long.  This could also be looked at for a more permanent #4 to #5 solution as well.....
17-I really liked this hole even with the Mando, but the MANDO is only to keep from going over the road, why not give the Big ARMS an option to throw over #9 and #18 to the grass....if you don't make it, punish them with a Re-Tee from the pad only if not in bounds on the drive?  I think that may create a HUGE scoring discrepancy....but as it is it is a tough hole, our card had 3 4's, and a 6....I will let you guess who got the 6..... ;D ::)


Overall, LONG and tough, are sure that this is an appropriate set up for AMs?  I really think that there are some tough and challenging holes.  I think that the A & B are just is always fun to throw downhill, but why not just put it at the short placement then is what I was thinking last night after we talked Scott.

Good thoughts and some wonderful ideas for the future on larger events for certain.

Kudos for the ideas.

General Banter / Re: WaterWorks Hole 17
« on: July 17, 2014, 11:30:58 AM »
no new map until it is complete.   There is a map but not for public consumption yet.

Blue Valley / Re: Earn your Green Frees.
« on: July 16, 2014, 02:27:16 PM »
I get that.  I would hit up Dan on that as well for the signage as well as updated information.  I mentioned this to him as well.

For future reference.....planting the plants in late october has been a much better plan, this unfortunately isn't the first time that plants were stolen out of there, who would have thought....I mean really....

It is a CHAMPIONSHIP that they want to entice to grow.  This is a method they feel will enable that.  Personally, I despise temp holes, so my judgement is out slightly already on that.  We do have a great track.  We don't alter and add for the Wide Open even with the Pro's when used as an NT event, so i am perplexed as well at the decision to add holes on what many consider their favorite KC course.

That being said, it is the sole discretion of the TD to create an environment that they feel will excite and entice the competitors.  We have used Rope at WW in the past, and several varying configurations over the years for final 9's as well as a standard 18 hole format with mandos and double mandos over the years.

The result hopefully will enable a fun and enjoyable experience at golf and a chance to say, remember when they did that at that one tourney......We say that now about #18, when the DOUBLE MANDO was there before we lost trees.

If we don't address the erosion and the mature degradation of the trees, we will continue to need to find solutions to make the course as premier as it stands today.  Those are more important issues than moving and adding holes IMO.

I for one though am all excited to play in an event that I don't run again, which all of you should be.  If you want to make it work a different way, please work with the BoD and ask to run events... ;D

I will be interested to see how it plays tonight, so reserving some judgement now for certain!

General Banter / Re: WaterWorks Hole 17
« on: July 16, 2014, 12:56:30 PM »
completely agree.  Part of the reason that #17 in the new configuration will no longer exist.  Sad but true.

General Banter / Re: WaterWorks Hole 17
« on: July 16, 2014, 11:16:00 AM »
I agree entirely on the common sense theory on this Danger.  Unfortunately common sense doesn't abound in many instances, and I won't get into politics with that statement.

The matter of the issue is though connectivity of the land, as such, once inbounds, and considered inbounds shall be inbounds.

In this same vein though why is a dividing line road OB then?  For example, #9 why isn't that Inbounds when throwing from #17, because we have grown accustomed to ON or ACROSS logic.  The reason seems simple enough on that matter, but having a connecting grass 200' away now makes you feel that it is all part of the same least that could be the argument....and those wanting to fight for it their way may do so.

Now to be DEVILS advocate on this, in Topeka a couple of years ago at Crestview, I put a disc that is normally OB by "local" rules in an area that wasn't defined, was connected to grass, and the TD gave me the green light, (I played a provisional) as it being in.  This was at the dismay of the local course care taker on my card.  However as an out of towner, I don't know the nuances of the course that he did.  He wasn't happy, but got where I was coming from.  The same can be made in this instance.  A belief that we all understand the rules and concepts at times may make it appear obvious to us, but not to a new person who has their own ideals.

in this instance though, you see you are crossing a street, an OB parking lot, and going above a wall.....I would think that you would realize that it is OB to a common sense......again common sense sucks.......for many.....

General Banter / Re: WaterWorks Hole 17
« on: July 16, 2014, 10:35:36 AM »
The problem is that the intent of #13 isn't to be an island, hence the problem with calling it that.  I guess in LIEU of the notion of having an island on #13, we could make it so that a line extended from the tee pad to the farthest NE corner of the parking lot would be considered OB, that would in essence create a more "standard" and defined OB on #12 that would have a starting and ending point....however some of my errant rollers then on #12 would be OB possibly, thus creating another issue.

This is yet again a reason that the peninsula shot is oddly placed, and wasn't thoroughly discussed when installed, part of the reason that only Course Designers should be putting in placements in addition to the course.  but that is my own thought.  I am not about to bash the work that Terry did out there, he did great things, I never thought that this placement, nor the one on #15 were the best moves though.....

General Banter / Re: WaterWorks Hole 17
« on: July 16, 2014, 09:32:52 AM »
would have been the Course Director in 2013, not the TD for certain on that.

As it plays, all OB is considered OB, therefore the fact that area is INBOUNDS, it would be considered IB.  Now a stipulation could be made (And moving forward may) that extending the West Parking lot area's OB in instances of hole #17 as an OB line could be made, but would have to be declared as such on programs, or covered in players meeting and would have to have a delineation in order to accomplish which COULD mess up people playing on #13.

This is an inherent issue in where we use the same land for multiple holes.  Just as throwing say 600' on the hole past the tree on #13 by the basket would still be considered in.  Because there is a "connector path" on #13 where it flows continuously it would be considered IB unless otherwise duly noted before the event.

That being said, it is a suck a$$ thing to do and in the scheme of things it should be considered OB for all intents and purposes.  It should be known that area is considered OB because, it quite frankly makes sense.  However to the letter of the ruling for an unspoken undefined event, yes that would be IB.  The future though will prevent that from happening by most in common agreement with the INTENT TO PLAY THE HOLE AS DESIGNED.  ****See Jack's face and reaction on Blue Valley after hearing about Nikko and McBeast on #9 and what changed in the future to prevent that from happening****

Realizing that these are for Scott, not Rob....

 ;D ;D ;D ;D

which placement on #5 are we going to?

What will be the OB rules on #17, since you have to Cross the street/parking lot with the exception of going WAYYYYY north.

Ok , I couldn't figure out how you were to make the island practice basket a hole in an actual event, glad to hear that isn't part of the equation.  Safety is the biggest thing in regards to this as my biggest concerns would be with the temp holes A/B, and then the safety of throwing over a road on #17 intentionally.

OK, more details.

Hole A is to the left of Standard 1.  It goes down hill.

Hole B comes back up the hill to the practice basket near the playground.

Assuming that we are playing the "ridge" of the hill then and then crossing the street to play back up to the practice basket?  If so, has a provision been made to ensure safety of the playground patrons and prevent any possible injuries?  I mean I understand it....I think....or are we throwing back up the ridge and crossing the road (more safety playing across a street that will be heavily parked car loaded comes to mind....

Holes 1-3 are normal
Hole 4 plays to 5's basket.
(skip teepad 5)
Hole 6-16 normal
Hole 17 to 12's peninsula's basket
Hole 18

There will be mandos set up to protect players, such as on hole 3 that will prevent you from playing from hole 2's fairway if you venture too far right.  Other mando's I'm sure.

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