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Messages - jack

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Leagues / Re: 2015 Summer Leagues
« on: March 03, 2015, 03:21:06 pm »
Thursday night at waterworks is probably the best, if not one of the best attended Lee in the city. There is a new players league that will be on Wednesdays (Thursday's) at the disc golf course in Pleasant Hill. As far as how competitive the leaves are, they are all generally competitive but that does not mean that you cannot come and play for fear of being made fun of. There are plenty of women who attend leaves that are mostly male dominated and do not get the scores. The winning men do.

Leagues / Re: 2015 Summer Leagues
« on: March 03, 2015, 03:20:14 pm »
Sorry for breaking up this argument ....


Pretty much, but there are all divisions at WW, it is one of the better ran and attended leagues, and honestly the reason it stands alone is due to the high traffic, which raises the "payout" which raises the "ace fund" which raises the attendance.

That is sort of the issue at hand, is diluting other days makes it hard to have that desired effect.

But to answer your question, WW is probably the best league in terms of building great relationships as well locally because it is heavily attended by members that you will get to love engage and enjoy. 

I have no animosity to almost anyone, even Rob.  Rob has done a lot of good things and changed some of my own ideas, and I appreciate it.  I have a funny way of showing it.  Though our philosophies I feel are vastly different, I know that Rob wants to see disc golf grow as I do, we just see it from varying lights.

Truly WW league is a great place that many like minded folks will come welcome you and help you understand more about the KCFDC scene and beyond!

Welcome!  If you see events at Cliff remember it isn't too far from Gladstone as well.

Leagues / Re: 2015 Summer Leagues
« on: March 03, 2015, 02:52:06 pm »
......... I don't feel like the board has done anything wrong and am not calling into question anyone's motives or the process. As I said before, if Monday is the night that Rob can do it, that's as good of a reason as I need. Eric K, you are a great club president and I appreciate the way you govern but also how you communicate with authenticity and honesty. I know the people on the board are serving out of the goodness of their heart and I don't want to add any stress to their lives. thanks to you all for serving. Thanks to everyone who runs leagues and volunteers. I wish you all many aces in the near future. Let's all just try to acknowledge that we see things differently and that doesn't mean one person is right or wrong. Communication is vital but it needs to be done with grace and poise, not finger pointing and name calling. We are blessed. Let's try to remember that more often.


Leagues / Re: 2015 Summer Leagues
« on: March 03, 2015, 01:21:59 pm »
....... If the membership doesn't want it. Let it be known. So far, I see only a couple of detractors and I think it is mostly personal and, frankly, it just pisses me off.

Obviously, this has become a mountain out of a mole hill and now I suppose we will need a formalized process of setting up the league schedule. OH JOY! I think this kind of behavior is what pushes people away from the club.

If I read this thread as a non-member, I likely would not join. Just saying.

So do we need a process beginning in February to determine the schedule? Will that make everyone happy? I think not. The sense I get is that the "almighty Board of Directors" has made some arbitrary decisions. Well being the head of the board, that has not been the case, I have simply communicated what I know.  Funny me.

I have tried to give members the opportunity to communicate and engage in planning. It's working. I guess.

I can't wait to play golf tonight.

I guess I was always of the mindset that there is a formalized process of creating leagues.  That was typically done in January meeting.  So to say that isn't the case is news to me.  Though I haven't been on the board since 2010, the notion that there wasn't a plan in place of some type to this guy makes little sense.  It is the #1 revenue generating component of the club.  It should have the highest priority I would think.  This is why the notion of $5 vs. $7 caused a stir.  When leagues moved days causes a stir, it has been that way for years, maybe I am the only one to worry about it, and I am ok with that notion that I am.

If that is the case, then fine, acknowledge that Jack shut up, it's this way, and I am ok with that as well.  I have already made a decision this year about myself.  It doesn't mean that the club can't find someone else to run the league at Cliff/BV.  I would welcome that.  Ultimately to me though, as I appreciate your desire to give those that want to do the power to do, there needs to be a balance between what makes sense and what doesn't.  Because someone can do it, doesn't mean it makes sense at the greater of the community, and hence it impacts many decisions.

That is the crux of my own problem with this, why saturate an already covered night with another venue?  Options, sure they are nice, but respect for the people willing to donate time on all accounts should be made.  You have essentially 4 people already working to increase attendance with the leagues on Monday's.  All of us working hard to do what we can to help, and also encourage.  Now you add a 5th person on a single night to do this, why?

If it is simply because they volunteered to do it, and that is their only night, that's fine, but I for one don't think it looks at the entire scene of the league community.  This is where the argument comes in my mind, not really an "I don't like Rob aspect", but rather why add to the busiest options of leagues already.  If Rob isn't using the KCFDC courses then why approve it, and if it isn't a KCFDC league then why are we talking about it?

Yes we all give in order to help others have fun, but in this case, the crusty old Jack as some of you want to view me as, (which I am fine with) has some major issues and concerns with.  I love the options KC has to offer, I just again can't for the life of me truly understand why the BoD decided to allow essentially a 5th league on one night.  I understand why Rob did it, he has only this night, and he wants to do it regardless of the impact.  I wanted to run NE League to continue to showcase how great the course is, and entice people with a PDGA League as has been done the past 2 years.  So to me is this just simply the case of let see what we can do, and how to get there?  More leagues is better as long as we have someone to run them?  Which is fine, but it's not something I want to donate my time over the course of the summer to when it's fighting for the same player to play in events.  We struggle with attendance at the league already in my mind, but I was ok with that because I liked giving the option for the players to enjoy it, and I was willing to sacrifice time to make it happen for the betterment of the course, community, and club.  Putting this additional burden in front of me makes me (and possibly others running league on Monday's(that's for them to decide))  think, well, they (BoD) don't appreciate this time I give as such why should I give it?  It impacts the NE League more because we have been a PDGA league.  Why I removed myself from the equation.

I will go back and repost that league isn't cancelled, but needs to find someone to run it.

Leagues / Re: 2015 Summer Leagues
« on: March 03, 2015, 12:52:42 pm »
So ultimately though I don't agree with the decision, I made a decision as well and it may help us all out collectively as a .org to drive more support on the leagues as a whole, and again reemphasize the need to be true to your local communities, which is what I believe that the KCFDC is about.  Like minds attempting to have fun playing a sport in our communities to promote the sport, and the parks we enjoy, and encourage others to play as well.

And I do think that Rob did a good job of promoting other courses in the past with his league, and I liked that notion, I just don't agree with the notion of the only night he is available so "lets let him do it", is in the best interest of the club, and that is MY opinion, and certainly one that many others will disagree with.  I am cool with that as well.  I am not about to be overly concerned with the notion that I view things differently.  In this instance though knowing what I know and the work it takes to make leagues work at Cliff, why fight the machine. 

So I choose a different path, and honestly I am ok with it, I just feel horrendous for Cliff and Blue Valley as they are the ones left out on this schedule now.

Leagues / Re: 2015 Summer Leagues
« on: March 03, 2015, 12:46:56 pm »
Here people are getting all frothy over what?  Options?  We should be thankful to have so many options.  Personally I feel Rob is a great guy and ANYONE who runs any league is to be commended for their time and commitment. 

Not about to argue that at all.  You are spot on for certain!

I don't understand why there has to be so much beef about this.  If you want to play in a league do so.  If you want to play in another league do so.  If you don't, then go play with yourself.

Because the people that play league on a regular basis isn't anywhere near the 300 people in the club, we are all fighting for attention.  As some indicated the Rosedale Monday night combo of New Players league and Diva league would be minimally impacted.

But as you can see over the course of time, an agreement to hold events that aren't really close to each other for leagues has made sense.  All the locations mentioned aren't close, and the notion of the NE leagues (Cliff/Blue Valley) was that with the enticement of the PDGA league it would increase participation.

Not saying having options isn't a good thing, but when the gaol was to increase participation and awareness of the NE leagues, and to use the PDGA league as a dangling carrot, it made sense.  Our main competition was Olathe (some 35 minutes away).  Now losing that impacts the decisions and options.  Yes it gives a player more, but the amount of time effort and energy that I put into the league, leaving work early, etc.... makes no sense for me to fight with something that in my mind shouldn't have been an option.

I indicated such to Eric, apparently to him the reward of the PDGA league for Rob was a better decision.  I trust his judgement to make this decision, I don't agree with it, and hence my decision to not run league.

Anyone can run league at the course if they want to, I will help where I can, but I have already decided to move ahead with the new league to continue to raise small amounts of money for the course as I had in the past.  I am comfortable with the notion that there will still be options to play league as Rob sees fit to play where he wants and how he wants, and I will piggyback on leagues locally working to increase participation at those events that are "Sanctioned" for the week to help raise awareness at the local level on courses that are established which is something I believe in.

So ultimately though I don't agree with the decision, I made a decision as well and it may help us all out collectively as a .org to drive more support on the leagues as a whole, and again reemphasize the need to be true to your local communities, which is what I believe that the KCFDC is about.  Like minds attempting to have fun playing a sport in our communities to promote the sport, and the parks we enjoy, and encourage others to play as well.

Leagues / Re: 2015 Summer Leagues
« on: March 03, 2015, 10:22:08 am »
You run leagues to promote your company.  You give very little back on the courses, and you yourself say you don't use KCFDC courses.  Yet you use the resources of the club to help your financing of the business and to build it.  This message board as a main method.....  And about the League you are running now, none of this will be on KCFDC courses?  Then why are we discussing this (other than entertaining the folks reading at work/home/lunch)?

To date all the names listed have been partners with the KCFDC and donated/paid for the use of the courses.  You state yourself you haven't.  I have no problem with them doing so as they have year over year proved that they are partners in the process.  They reach out to the BoD first, they ask what can they do.  They don't go behind the club and reach out to start a dialogue without asking the club whom to contact, you have proven that over and over most recently.

That is partial my issue (maybe not so partial), but the bigger issue to me remains why the need for the BoD to allow 4 leagues to be played on one night when there are nights with only 1.

I have no argument with businesses making money on the sport of Disc golf.  In fact I encourage it. 
I hope you make money at the sport, but do it in the right context. You have proven to me personally on your posts you don't.  You would rather start conversations at places without the involvement of the club, and circumvent the process to please your needs.  That is another issue I have.  Can you do it, absolutely, should you?........

This isn't about jack Lowe getting his way I don't get my way often, and I am cool with that.  I have pretty thick skin, so this doesn't bother me.  What bothers me most is the notion that you claim the BoD approved this and there were 3 other leagues on Monday.  I would like to think that this does open the eyes in many instances of what needs to be done in order to help ensure the KCFDC is a value added partner within the communities and parks departments we have strong, intermediate, and initial conversations.  Having a "maverick" disc golfer doesn't help the community as whole.  Which is what I have come to believe over the past 16 years here the KCFDC is all about.

It is quite simple Rob, you won in my book as your decision to run a PDGA league to promote your business trumps that of the .org to run leagues.  I would hope that makes it pretty simple to see.

But let's call it what we shall, a league being ran by a person with vested interest in promoting their company.  To me that is counter intuitive towards the goals of the club as I thought they were.

General Banter / Re: East Side TEAM page
« on: March 03, 2015, 09:54:01 am »
It won't matter how it came together if we win.  If we lose we hear you mock us for another year. IfWHEN you lose we mock you for a year.  And so the fun continues.

General Banter / Re: East Side TEAM page
« on: March 03, 2015, 09:52:07 am »
A qualifier for the East side on the west side courses?

How many west-siders can fit in that car of yours?

My apologies, is it not OK for me to post an A-tier here? If it's not, I'll happily delete the post. Thanks.

No, perfectly fine in all honesty.  Don't let me stop you.  I lived in Chi-Town for years, and always had to drive down there to see Gary to play.  Love the area, but the drive is a killer, and the notion that there is an A-Tier closer (PDGA's fault not yours) is always something strikes me odd. 

There are plenty of people who may opt for this, so this is WAY more than appropriate to post it in here.

As Kevin indicated it is better to post it here than to delete it.

I hope the event is a big success I really do.  I just wish it wasn't on a weekend that has always been Des Moines weekend.  I am looking for an excuse to get back up there to visit and play, and I don't wanna go over to IN and Lemon Lake to play.

I haven't played this Canyon's course yet, maybe plan on playing it on my way to K-Zoo this summer, so it is very informative, regardless of this smart-ass comment! 


No disrespect meant, but sarcasm is often lost on me in the rooms, in person not so much!

General Banter / Re: East Side TEAM page
« on: March 03, 2015, 09:46:04 am »
So....we use a rock to kill the West Side, we use chalk to mark their bodies, then we bury them at KU?

Leagues / Re: PDGA League-Cash for stats
« on: March 03, 2015, 09:32:49 am »
This league is registered with the PDGA, lets hear some talk about how you want to see it done. 

Do you want to have that extra money weekly?

Do you just want to see a rating and get in there for the $1 fee?

Do you want to get a discount of 20% by paying in $50 for the entire 10 week season? (this would alter the payout slightly, but is a 20% discount)

Top heavy on the weekly payout, or top heavy on the season end payout?

that $1 fee is required by the PDGA, but 1/2 will go towards the Tree Fund at Cliff Drive.

Leagues / Re: 2015 Summer Leagues
« on: March 03, 2015, 09:22:59 am »
Rob Martin will be doing PDGA right? It says Rob Miller, but I am sure Eric, in his rush to be awesome, just made an error...

Yes Crispi, Rob has my support and vote of Confidence.

Rob, your in!!! STICK TO IT.

Jack, cease your belittling ways.  You of all people should know better.  And furthermore, I believe you're the only one that has your own disc golf event too.

Rob, your IN!!! Let's DO this...

Yeah, that I pay money out of my pocket to run.

Rob is running events to make money.  I have never ever done that.

4 leagues is silly, that is the big issue to me.  I have never Doug ran an event to make money personally.  NOT ONCE, i never will.  I do things to support the community and the club.  I don't need to go into the work that I have given and the time given, the events missed over the years.  It dwarf's Rob's, it dwarf's many.

The issue to me is the leagues are to be the bread and butter of the organization.  We have had a fairly consistent schedule with them, there are nights open, namely Thursday night has NEVER HAD any other event, so why not allow something like this to happen on Thursday would have made more sense to me than an already crowded Monday night.

I don't see eye to eye with Rob because I believe that private messages should remain private.  He doesn't.  I don't believe that you should run events to make money for yourself, he does.  I don't believe you should use club resources for your own financial gain he does.  I believe that the knowledge that there would already be a PDGA event on Monday's as there have been over the past 2 years should have a position to remain, and apparently the BoD had a discussion about this offline according to Rob that approved this.  I have an issue with that as well.

But realistically, then the BoD needs to find a replacement to run said Monday night at Cliff drive.  I have already registered the league to be ran in conjunction with the leagues we have.  Nothing will change, you will only have the option to "buy in" for the night on the PDGA league.  I am working on payout, etc.  But it will be cash only for all divisions.  More than likely the only divisions offered will be PRO, AM, MASTERS, WOMEN. 

Leagues / Re: PDGA League-Cash for stats
« on: March 02, 2015, 06:18:41 pm »
This would cover a 10 week period hitting a different course each week that has league, and making it to all locations.
Rosedale-New Players/Women's night possibly (If not then Olathe-Birdland)
WW to finish-or possibly Cliff Drive/Blue Valley return for the night depending on how things swing, or Blue Springs if ti gets a rotational shift

Is what I am thinking of doing.....

Leagues / PDGA League-Cash for stats
« on: March 02, 2015, 06:13:21 pm »
This would be a rotating through the league play.  Nothing new other than the fact that one night a week your league would become a PDGA league.  There would be a $6 charge (if you like it) with $5 going towards the payout, and $1 to pay the PDGA fees and the club fees.  This wouldn't be included with the "league fees" that night, so would be something completely separate to the league.

In other words, you come to play league at WW-$6, (with club member discount its $5) you play league regularly.  If you sign up for the PDGA night there the options I am exploring would be would you be interested in an additional $5 payout, and it would be in all cash, including Am's.  There would be an additional $1 to cover the league fee to the PDGA.  Each night we could have a payout based on the attendance that night.  I would base it on a 1/3 payout scale.

I am gauging interest as since I won't be running Monday nights, I will want to get out and play.  This would be creative enough for me to hit every night, and not interfere with the regular league, not force you to miss your local league, and get some ratings, and extra $$ in the league that night.

The winner methodology I am thinking would be based on round ratings cumulative with a requirement of 7 rounds to win the season end pot.  It probably would be based on a 1/4 payout scheme to award those more that play more.  If they played the same 7 courses it would be a tie, but if they played 9, we only take the top 7 scores.


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