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Messages - Tracy

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1
General Banter / Re: Chainless
« on: November 10, 2017, 08:52:50 AM »
Tracy, does that mean that if we play fast and quit jamming that you will start playing again.  ;D
No, my days of tourney disc golf are done.

2
General Banter / Re: Chainless
« on: November 05, 2017, 04:26:24 PM »
The increase in chains allows for more ACES and long up shots to stick.
Sure, the evolution of basket designs allows for those things. But there hasn't been a single chain link added to target design to increase the number of aces or long shots.  Every increment of target evolution has been solely to reduce missed putts from poorly executed shots.  The motivation being that the targets were not functioning to optimal "catching" capacity.  Bah.  The person missing the putt wasn't performing to optimal athletic ability.

3
General Banter / Re: Chainless
« on: November 03, 2017, 05:59:25 PM »
Imagine baseball, coach pitched, played on a softball diamond. <facetiously>The game would be so much more enjoyable.  Every pitch... Gone.  No silly strikeouts or walks. Gone or you're out!  Baseball would be so much more entertaining. Every game a “Home Run Derby." Every kid would want to play baseball.  The growth of baseball would be phenomenal.  Let's do this MLB commissioner!</facetiously>

What disc golf is doing to the target could be loosely compared to if basketball made the rim larger and larger in diameter.  Standard hoop size is 18."   If it were the PDGA approving basketball hoop standard size, by now basketball hoops would be 3 feet in diameter.  (we have to make the game enjoyable for everyone, after all) Wait!  It still would be much harder to shoot a basket than putting is in disc golf.  Lower that 3 foot diameter basket to a rim height of 6 feet. Now we're talking. Everyone! SLAM it home!  Basketball would become even more popular 'cause everyone can do it.  blech!

Ok, back to reality. The escalation of heavier and more chained up targets is rewarding those with a very specific style of finishing out; I call them Jammers.  The object of the game used to be to get the disc into the "basket." When targets had a sparsely configured set of a dozen or so chains, finishing out actually required touch. If you didn’t use touch, you blew through or bounced off the chains or rattled out of the basket. The object of the game now days is to slam the disc into a wall of chains designed to prevent all those unwanted results above.  Touch is no longer required, just the ability to jam the disc into the chains. And OMG I’m going to throw a tizzy if those chains don’t hang on to my disc like it’s their newborn baby! 

Don’t fret, we all know Chainless baskets aren’t going to happen.  I just threw that out there as a radical counter to the current direction of the sport.  Anyone with any power to make changes to the game is not seriously considering moving the sport in the direction of making it more challenging. Disc golf target evolution was not guided by the PDGA to encourage players to get better, it has evolved to make it easier to play. It’s that simple.

If you feel putting is still too difficult, don't expect better “catching" devices.  Instead, get good through practice, practice, practice.  Not practice rounds but field practice, putting practice, hours and hours, thousands and thousands of throws every week. If you're not able or willing to do that, then accept that you're a casual golfer, not a competitive one. As such, parts of the game you're not naturally good at are going to be frustrating.  For some their frustration may be driving,  for others it may be putting. And for most casual golfers, both.

Anyway, basket design isn't going to radically change anytime soon.  It will likely continue to evolve into bigger, heavier, more dense masses of chains to appease the whiners while at the same time making the game easier than ever, thus more appealing to the masses.  Oh and it’ll be very appealing to the disc manufacturers (all the way to the bank) when that 250g “Wall (of chains) Jammer” is approved for play, by the PDGA (because there will be throngs of whiners that begin to complain that their 175g putters can’t push aside all those chains in the modern baskets and as such are getting too many “kickbacks/rejections”). The eager masses will rush to plunk down their $20 each for that radical, game changing, disc design.   

If you made it this far, remember this: Every single putt you ever missed, or ever will miss, is your responsibility.  None of those missed putts was, nor ever will be, the targets fault.  If everyone had earnestly accepted that truth all through this sports history, we might still be “putting”  instead “jamming” aside a massive wall of chains to finish out each hole.

4
General Banter / Re: Chainless
« on: November 01, 2017, 04:34:24 PM »
Yes,  "steady" Ed's target design was intended to solve the "did I hole out" controversy and to entice the masses.  The basket solved the first issue and the chains solved the second.  However, in my opinion, the chain structure was overkill from the beginning.
<snip> I remember the first time I played disc golf and I shot 38 over par at Cliff Drive (poor course choice by my friends for my first course).  If there were no chains on those baskets it would've been probably 100+ over par because unlike what Tracy said...I still believe putting to be the hardest part of the game.  Would I have come back after shooting 100+ over par???  Likely not. 

Maybe you would have shot closer to par with chainless baskets?  Maybe you would have considered the difficulty of the shot in front of you and instead of jamming it off the chains or air-mailing the shot altogether.  You lay up, then drop in.  But I imagine the bulk of your shots that day at Cliff were actually errant throws into the woods or OB (plus strokes), rather than a collection of 3 and 4 putts on each hole.  Yes, getting from tee to basket is actually more challenging than putting into a chain/basket structure.

5
General Banter / Re: Chainless
« on: November 01, 2017, 01:38:55 PM »
Look at this thing. 

https://www.pdga.com/files/u1370/prodigy_pro_dg_t1.jpg

So many chains criss-crossing about, you can barely see through the contraption.  We know those horizontal connector chains are there to improve "catching" by reducing blow-throughs of hard *jams*.  But at the same time this design is increasing the amount of mass that the static massed disc has to push against to successfully hole out. Which rewards even harder *jamming.* Eventually the PDGA will be forced to approve a much heavier but same diameter "jammer," so the force of the throw can knock all those chains aside. When will the escalation end?

It can end right now by evolving the game to chainless targets.

6
General Banter / Chainless
« on: November 01, 2017, 11:39:37 AM »
Ed Headrick's invention of the chain/basket combination for a target is the single most important factor in the growth of disc golf.  This target configuration made it easy to identify when a player had holed out.  It also made the game easier and thus more attractive to the casual player, than having to hole out by hitting a slender post/pole. 

Over the decades since its invention, the chain/basket targets have steadily evolved into disc "catching" devices. Players have come to feel they are entitled to make any shot that hits the chains.  Pros walk off courses that have older generation chain/basket targets and complain to the TD (or anyone that will listen) that those targets ought to be upgraded to the newest, best disc "catching" device designs.

The problem with chain/basket targets is not they don't "catch" enough. The problem is chain/basket targets catch too many throws that are *jammed* at them. Putting has become the easiest part of the game of disc golf due to the ever evolving design of chain/basket targets.

The solution to whether a target has a playable chain configuration or not is not to keep upgrading chain configurations and designs such that the target "catches" even better than previous generations of chain/basket targets. The solution is to simply remove the chains, hanger and all. Yes, play on chainless disc golf targets that have just the center post and basket.

This could be implemented on any course at zero cost to the course maintainers.  Doing so instantly converts a pitch and put course into a true par 3 challenge.  Removing the chains upgrades any decently difficult course to "gold" level and elevates any gold course to an epic challenge for even the best Pro's. 

Chainless disc golf would eliminate "jamming" and bring "putting," in every sense of the word, back to the game.  Putting would require vastly improved touch, accuracy and decision making.  But this will never happen because even the best players feel they are entitled to make every *jam* at the target.

7
Tournaments / Re: Pace of Play
« on: May 26, 2017, 02:06:21 PM »
Dude I only got to your third bullet point, cause I limit reading posts to 30 seconds, but it sounds like you've describing JWaldron.
Don't think I've ever played a round of disc golf with him.   The problem of slow play is quite common.  The scenario/process I described above is of an extreme case, but a real one. However, my intent is not to call out any players specifically.

'cept you, danger, read faster!   :P

8
Tournaments / Re: Pace of Play
« on: May 25, 2017, 12:38:57 PM »
https://youtu.be/aCYQ2sEhzjM
Perfect! A melody that's busy busy busy but goes no where, underlined by the monotone drone that is equally non-progressing. 

Ok, so most of the people that play slowly don't realize it.  Just like the song; busy busy busy, but going no where.   How many of you have observed the following in a player?
- They're the last one to arrive at their disc. Usually, well after others on the card have already arrived in the area. (they've already broken the "reasonable amount of time" rule)
- They set their bag down or park their cart 5-10 yards away from their lie. (btw, 30 second clock actually starts now)
- They approach their disc, do an evaluation of their options, then return to their bag to fetch their mini.
- They return with mini in hand and mark their lie. (this is when people think the 30 second clock starts...  wrong,  you're disc is considered marked as it lies)
- They walk the 5-10 yards back to their bag and after mulling it over, pull out two discs.
- They walk the 5-10 yards back to their lie and decide which disc to throw (at this point some actually take the unwanted disc back to their bag and put it away.  Some will just set down the disc they decided against throwing. (yay! it's the most efficient thing they'll do all round)
- tick tock, tick tock (30 seconds has passed)
- They take a stance at their lie, but get distracted by a car passing by a 100 yards away (urrrrgh,  30 second clock reset. yeah it's a broken, abused loophole in the rule)
- At this point, they may stay committed to their disc decision, or not.  In the later case, repeat the walk back to bag, disc selection and walk back to their lie.
- In any case, they eventually get to a non-distracted throwing routine.  (omg, throw the plastic already, please!)
- aaaaaand finally their shot is away. 
- Rinse and repeat for each shot for the duration of the round. *sigh*

If the above even remotely describes your routine on the golf course, then you're the one holding up the group you're with. You're breaking the pace of play rules in addition to infuriating every one on your card and the cards stuck behind you.

9
Summer Leagues / Re: WYCO league 2017
« on: April 13, 2017, 09:19:15 AM »
FlyBy, your ace fund amount is incorrect.  Spread sheet for 2016 shows ace fund on Sept. 2 to be $689. However, there was an ace hit that night. per http://kcfdc.org/forum/index.php?topic=12859.0 and eventually paid this past Feb. http://kcfdc.org/forum/index.php?topic=12864.0
As such, you might want to check with Chris Timko as to the actual value of the Wyco ace fund.

10
Tournaments / Re: Pace of Play
« on: March 15, 2017, 05:02:22 PM »
When there are cards on all 18 holes for tournaments, the pace of play can only be as fast as the slowest card on the course. When cards are arranged in the 2nd round by scores, this becomes even more of an issue.

I've observed good rated players shooting quite low scores holding up tournament progress. It's not about that 30 second "shot routine."  What's slowing the card down is the stuff they're doing the other 15+ minutes per hole.

So I don't think it's fair to say the players making the most throws throughout a round are typically the slowest on the course.  Sure more throws inherently takes a bit longer. But some extra shots isn't an issue if the group is conscious of their position relative to the group in front of them. The problem is all the diddling around in between shots, not being ready when it's a players turn, dawdling about between holes and taking more than a moment to get scores down and get right up on the next tee, that eventually leads to a cards slow play and falling behind.

Additionally, the clause in the excessive time rule I posted previously is the "reasonable amount of time to arrive at the disc" is totally subjective and thus basically non-enforceable. So you have to rely on the Speed of Play rule in Code of Conduct as what is "falling behind" is less subjective.  However, that rule can only be called by a tournament official, which there may be only one at the event. As such, the TD is unable to effectively marshal the entire course for speed of play.

11
Tournaments / Re: Pace of Play
« on: March 15, 2017, 12:47:43 PM »
Someone doesn't like 5 1/2 hour rounds I see. lol

It's mind boggling that it takes over 18 minutes per hole for four players to complete a round.   Try this, get 3 of your buddies together at a course, pick one hole of average length for that course.  Start a stopwatch,  everyone throw, then... crawl...  yes, literally get on your hands and knees and crawl to your disc.  Each player gets up throws and crawls finishing the hole in this manner. Then crawl to the next tee, take scores and finally stop the clock.  I'll bet you finish that 1 hole process  faster than 18 minutes.  Faster,  crawling.  WTF?

12
Tournaments / Pace of Play
« on: March 15, 2017, 09:43:52 AM »
What does it mean?  If you and your group have fallen behind the group in front of you, thus holding up the entire field behind you, you should be warned by an official. Then you're going to have to run to catch up. Yes, running does qualify as EVERY EFFORT. If you fail to catch up in a reasonable amount of time, each player on the card should be stroked for each hole you remain behind.  Point is;  do not fall behind the group IN FRONT of you and your card.  It is inconsiderate to all the players backing up on holes behind you and thus why it is in the rules and player code of conduct.

       3.2 Pace of Play [1]
Last updated: Monday, August 10, 2015 - 16:05     

     
  • All competitors shall play without undue delay and will make every effort to keep up with the group in front of them. Players are required to quickly move from the completion of one hole to the tee area of the next hole. Also, while advancing down the fairway, the player shall not unduly delay play by his or her actions.
  • A player causing undue delays may be issued an excessive time violation by tournament officials. Please see PDGA Rules of Play 804.01B Excessive Time [2] regarding specific penalties.
[1] - http://www.pdga.com/rules/competition-manual/section-3-player-code-conduct/32-pace-of-play
[2] - http://www.pdga.com/rules/official-rules-disc-golf/804-the-throw/80401-excessive-time 

13
Tournaments / Re: 2017 Kan U Wyco - PDGA B' Tier - KCMS #2 - 3/11-3/12
« on: March 09, 2017, 01:47:00 PM »
Yeah, checking out the ropes ahead of time is a good idea.  The yellow rope is difficult to see against the dead grass.  Potential of snow isn't going to help .  :(

Side note:  I donated my old practice basket as a floater practice basket on hole #2. It is currently in the middle position. The flagged (tournament) pin is in the extra long.  Mark H. has the only key(s) to the floater basket lock. He said after this weekend, he'll move the flagged basket to the short and the practice basket to the extra long, so there will be a place to warm up putting if you park at shelter J for casual or league rounds.  It also makes for a nice little triangle of an upshot circuit between the two #2 baskets and the practice basket near the tennis courts.

14
General Banter / Re: The Disc Golf List
« on: November 17, 2016, 09:32:22 PM »
PDGA Number: 7148
When you started: 1980 chucking Wham-O 80e mold Ultimate discs at objects (so not technically disc golfing 'til '83, see first disc)
Throwing Style: RHBH
Putting Style: Straddle pitch (35 years after starting, I finally found a putt style that mostly works for me)
Favorite Pro: Nate Doss
Favorite Disc: Bolt
Favorite Disc Manufacturer: Latnovacraft
Lifetime Aces: 5 (Delaveaga #12 short - casual round, Swope #17 - KCWO, Wyco #5 short - league, Wyco #8 twice; once in casual round another in league)
Best Round: 57 at Pickard in 2007 First Class Challenge, though a couple of 52's at Wyco have felt just about as good.
Favorite Course: DeLaveaga, Santa Cruz, Ca.  nothing will challenge you to sharpen your game like this one played regularly.
Least Favorite Course: Hellyer Park, San Jose, Ca. gully golf defined.
One Disc Round disc: Depends on the course, but pack one for any possibility?  I'd probably go with whatever driver I'm favoring at the time.  So a Bolt
Person who got you into disc golf: Wasn't really a person but a necessity for when we still wanted to throw but not enough players around for a game of Ultimate. But "Rojo" probably did most to keep up my interest in the game with regular friendly competitive rounds in the mid to late 80's.
First Disc: mail order Innova Champion Aero (man was it cool to throw a disc from one goal post to the other on a football field)
If there was any course you could play: Winthrop Gold at USDGC.  It's not just about the course but the entire event and atmosphere around it.
Home Course: Wyco

15
I wasn't able to get the day off to go help with this. But nice to see almost 40 trees planted on holes 3, 4, 8, 9 and 17. 

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