Messages

856

Smithville / Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers

« on: January 18, 2010, 08:41:34 AM »

I like holes where the OB narrows on one or both sides of the fairway as it gets closer to the green.  The longer you know, the more the need for accuracy.  But I think you have to keep the OB at a reasonable distance from the basket.  Shots that land OB should be the result of a poor decision, a poor execution, or both.  It shouldn't be left to "luck" or chance, such as an OB line too close to trees on a main fairway route, or a basket that spits a putt that rolls OB.  OB is generally the lowest point, like a road or a pond.  So this can increase the chance that shots will land there and more distance should be given for close to the basket situations the lower it is from the basket.  If OB is used next to a basket, I would think you would put it somewhere where an advanced player might make the putt half the time.  Maybe around 35'.  Then pros can limit the amount the OB punishes them, but it still takes a good shot.  For OB near the edges of the fairway, a 50/50% chance of getting up & down makes sense as well.  For OB around the green, you almost always see it behind the basket.  If a player knows they can make the putt from the OB line, they can use this as insurance instead of having to face a tough decision.  I think that having OB in front is more interesting.  Then a player has to decide to lay up or go for it on the drive or approach.  Then the player who runs at the shot and runs too far past has to again make a decision because if they go past this time they'll be OB and looking at a big number.  In the end, I think it is situational.  On an open flat course, some guidelines may work pretty well.  But in more unique situations, some exceptions might actually add some flavor.

I agree with most of what you are saying here, but I think I need to clarify my point a little bit. I think OB should be at the closets 20ft ONLY when it isn't too expansive around the pin. For example, if there is a little pond 20-25 ft away from the pin but it is only towards the left edge of the green I would expect players to account for the type of OB and to either challenge the pin and take the risk or play it safer out towards the right and see if they can still get close enough for the bird. I guess the main point of questioning OB is to question whether it is fair for the player throwing good shots and one of the main thoughts that comes out of that is that you can still throw a good shot and land OB if you didn't take the OB into consideration, but then did you really make a good shot?

Can anybody think of a good way to have a bunch of artificial OB without rope or paint, both of which are time consuming and expensive? (I know roads and water and paths and whatnot, I'm saying where that isn't available.)

857

Smithville / Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers

« on: January 17, 2010, 08:38:15 PM »

I have two points... and the first is taken by Lefty Dan as I am writing this... how does everyone know that they are Chinese made instead of American made. I've looked for it and still haven't found it. And the second is this, http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2009/apr/07/business/chi-tue-made-in-usa-0407-apr07. Not saying this is a definitive answer about whether you should or should not buy American 100% of the time, but it does have some interesting points made in it. And, think about this, Innova is an American Company which, if it does produce its baskets in China does so for a reason, i.e. to production costs which allows them to keep their products competitive with other companies which allows us as disc golfers to increase our buying power and thus further support the American economy by buying more stuff.
The global economy isn't a black and white subject and is more complex than most if not all of us can fully understand and I think it is foolish for us to base our decisions about the best course equipment on something so confusing. Undoubtedly if Innova does produce baskets in China they are doing it for a reason such as keeping disc prices low or being able to pay the people who work to produce the discs in Rancho Cucamonga.
I think we should get the main point of this thread back on topic and focus on what we can do to make this one of the best disc golfing destinations in the area if not the world and the way that we will do that is by consciously deciding to focus on productive thoughts such as design, choosing the best equipment, tee shape and size, and appropriate shock 'n' awe features for the course so that we can get more people hooked on disc golf. (And then they can help us support the economy more by buying countless discs from DGA, Innova, Discraft, Gateway, and all of the other great American disc manufacturers.)


So, new idea up for debate, how close is too close for a basket to be to OB? My personal opinion, 20 ft min and 30 ft preferable. Discuss...

858

Smithville / Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers

« on: January 17, 2010, 08:22:34 PM »

I am glad that Tom and Cooper have no problem with buying products made in China.  Maybe you guys can order the baskets off Wal-Mart.com.   I like buying made in USA to keep Americans working.  If you can make a putt in a discatcher then you should be able to make a putt in any basket.  Quit buying crap made in China if you can help it.  Tom aren't you an engineer, maybe you can move to Shanghai and play disc golf, or Korea.  Better put a car alarm on Gus.

Unfortunately walmart.com does not sell disc golf baskets.

859

Smithville / Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers

« on: January 15, 2010, 04:31:02 PM »

DISCatchers are $150 dollars cheaper than Mach IIIs. (a piece, not total).

Where do you guys think that $150 savings comes from? (hint: manufacturers have saved a lot of money that is passed on to the consumer by having products made at overseas locations)

I was wrong, it is only $120... and that is according to DGAs website.

As for the belt rusting too quickly, that has not been my experience at all... The baskets at Olathe have been in a long time and they are still in great shape. They may have been repainted at some point, I don't know, but whatever was done, if anything to them, they still work really well.

And as for hating the 'clank' the belt makes when you miss too high, I have a really good remedy for that. Don't miss too high! No, seriously though, I love the belt at the top not only because it is highly visible but also because it doesn't damage your disc like the nickel on top of Mach IIIs or even the stubby look at the top. Plus, I've seen a lot of guys make putts on Mach IIIs that hit where the belt would have been and then they do like 3 summersaults, a backflip, and a half lutz. Those putts are lucky and they should be avoided if at all possible.

860

Found and Lost / Re: found and lost at snowman

« on: January 15, 2010, 09:25:23 AM »

It was towards 7 fairway a pretty good ways up there if I remember right.

861

Smithville / Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers

« on: January 15, 2010, 08:40:45 AM »

I like Innova too... and it isn't just because DISCatchers are $150 dollars cheaper than Mach IIIs. (a piece, not total). Overall I'm OK with Mach Vs, I think they play better and look better than Mach IIIs but they still aren't as good as DISCatchers.
And I agree with Tom, let's buy the best baskets here, regardless of where they may or may not be made.

862

Smithville / Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers

« on: January 14, 2010, 07:11:06 PM »

On the tee pads, if you want to offer more run-up angles, wide at the back is better.  Making them wide at the front doesn't do the same.  Say you want to throw an RHBH annhyzer, you would normally start at the right side of the pad and finish towards the middle or left.  But what if the left side is blocked out by a tree, then you are running up from off the pad or taking a crooked run-up.  Just saying, it isn't the same.  Multiple options off the tee is usually good.  But balancing the risk / reward for each route is difficult.  By doubling the front edge dimension of the pad, you may make 2 to 3 options into 4-6 and one of them makes all the rest obsolete and thus destroys the balance.  On a tunnel shot style hole, where there is one basic route, something like this wouldn't be a problem, but still wouldn't be better than big in the back, unless the intention is to give more options, make the hole easier.  5' is plenty on the front of any pad- you never see anyone slip off the sides, it is always the front because the pad is too short or it isn't level in the back so players can't add to their run up from beyond the pad.

Yes! That is what I've been trying to get at but didn't want to take the time to write all of...

863

Smithville / Re: Smithville Disc Golf Complex

« on: January 14, 2010, 07:08:44 PM »

I do like dual tees, the problem is they are significantly more expensive than multiple pins, which often work just fine in adding the variety to the course.

864

Smithville / Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers

« on: January 14, 2010, 02:33:26 PM »

EXACTLY!!! If that pad were a trapezoid with the narrow end at the front the RHBH player could throw the same way that they do with help on the tee pad (since they are approaching the shot from on the wing of the tee pad and not from off the tee pad as they currently have too). The narrow end at the front makes it to where they don't have the ability to take too much of that initial tree out of the way and to make the hole too easy.

865

Smithville / Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers

« on: January 14, 2010, 01:53:49 PM »

I think the idea isn't so much to make the front of the tee pad smaller as to make the back of the tee pad larger (and give is some snazzy wings), that way people can approach the front from several different angles but still have a launching area similar to most other tee pads.

866

Smithville / Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers

« on: January 14, 2010, 11:16:56 AM »

I don't know about the wear but I do know a lot of people who have complained about the gauge of chain used in those baskets as being too small and allowing too many spit-outs. I think it is really important to put in the best catching basket we can to keep players happy and not feeling frustrated.
(I know that players will always complain when a putt falls out, but I think if we do everything we can to reduce that it will go a long way to keeping players loving these courses)

867

Smithville / Re: Smithville Disc Golf Complex

« on: January 14, 2010, 09:25:01 AM »

I haven't seen the land so this might be a dumb comment but would it be possible to design each course so that with variable basket locations, each of the three tracks coudl be set up from intermediate to Pro? Rosedale Up top comes to mind. Set it short and the Pro's tear it up and the newbies can shoot in the 50's, set it long and it's a completly different course.

Also, I wonder about this; initially, are you looking for traffic, i.e. lots of play or are you looking for a new course for the bombers to play? I'm clearly an intermediate player and being that I live in South OP I'm not going to drive to Smithville to play a course where I struggle to get a four! I'll play a few times for the experience, but not too often. If it's a kick a$$ layout, with a variety of lengths, you might get a more consistant level of traffic.

Overall though, it's great news that some many courses are in the works!

Remember: focus group of one here, just my $.02

A pro level course isn't necessarily nor should it be a 'bomber' course. A mix of distances is immensely important at any level course, especially the open/championship level.

868

Smithville / Re: Smithville Disc Golf Complex

« on: January 14, 2010, 08:16:11 AM »

My vote is for the advanced or pro level course and here is the reasoning.
First, the Blue/Gold level course will keep competitive (notice I didn't just say advanced or pro players) satisfied and will make them more likely to show up on a regular basis. It doesn't have to be as long as Blue Valley (which is an all day event to play) to be a Gold level course and, like most of the courses in the area, will be set up as the Blue level or shorter course for most of the season with only the occasional pin set super long.
Second, the Blue/Gold level course is best for tournaments. The PDGA recommends that courses be set at at least Blue level for tournaments because the majority of players play in the advanced or open divisions. I think this fact is important here because a lot of the people who will be playing tournaments are the same ones who will be coming back again and again to play. Let's face it, recreational/beginner players will show up to play almost anything in droves as long as it is fun enough. The trick is to provide the kind of course that higher level players will enjoy and be challenged by and one that will be fun enough to not scare away the recreational/beginning player.
Third, this is a pay to park park. The reason I think this is important is that players who are drawn to the park to play a challenging course are more likely to consistently pay to park. Part of the designer challenge is to maximize the parks investment and in a pay to park park that is getting as many people in to play it as possible. The recreational/beginner who is somewhere between Smithville and Water Works and wants to play will likely go to Water Works because it is free to play instead of the $5 per car charge at Smithville. If our course proves that it can bring a lot of people in, like for leagues, homie, beer league, tournaments, etc... we will be more likely to get the future courses actually installed because we will be helping create our own budget and we may even have the opportunity to look at some more courses up there at another site in the future.

Also, I reject the thought as a designer that recreational/beginning players won't want to play the most challenging course possible. As long as the course has ways for them to 'win' and increase their self-efficacy I think they will be likely to return again and again and also will improve their game much more than if we pander to them and make and old course that looks like it was designed before any beveled-edged disc was ever dreamt.

869

Smithville / Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers

« on: January 14, 2010, 08:02:01 AM »

Tom,
That is going to be my recommendation because I too think they are the best catching baskets available. And they do come in multiple colors, they are more expensive, but so is every other kind of basket when you get it colored.

870

Smithville / Re: Call for Disc Golf Course Designers

« on: January 13, 2010, 07:45:33 PM »

between the two i'd rather have colored baskets

Colored baskets are a must...that way no one gets confused and plays across different courses.

Oh the troubles of building a Complex...will it never end?

Dan 

And they are just sweet looking!