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chi chi rodweez

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Penn valley
« on: February 12, 2014, 04:56:46 PM »
Loomis ( or someone else) recently posted RE:  urban disc golf penn valley etc...I also know Jack and many others have inquired on this potential gem opportunity in years past...I think maybe 10+ years ago.  Many of us have setup temp baskets around this area and know how awesome it can be.  A lot of hurdles to jump but below is a response to an email I sent today on the live chat city budget meeting today.    We should somehow get this done.

Hi Mr. Becks,

Thank you for participating in today’s interactive budget chat. I shared your question with Mark McHenry, director of Parks and Recreation. He thinks your request is worth exploring. The City would have to work with the KC Fly Disc Golf Club and the Penn Valley Park Conservatory to  design such a course. We would likely use the City’s Capital Budget to design/create the park and then the Parks and Recreation budget would be used to maintain the course.

Mr. McHenry said that the Parks and Recreation Department will bring this suggestion to the KC Fly Disc Club and the Penn Valley Park Conservatory and get their input on its feasibility. He added that if you have follow-up questions,

Sincerely,

Megan



Megan (Kelly) Hewitt
City Editor
City Communications Office
Office of the City Manager
City of Kansas City, Mo.
414 E. 12th St., Suite 2101
Kansas City, MO 64106


From: Tim Becks [mailto:Tbecks@curtisnfp.net]
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 11:09 AM
To: kcmosocial
Subject: city budget question

My name is Tim Becks.  I’d like the ask the council if Parks and Recs  could seriously consider installing a disc golf course in Penn Valley Park. It’s an awesome piece of the city that is TOTALLY underused.  Look at many of the parks around in KCMO, Kessler Park, Blue Valley, Waterworks, and Swope.  All have championship level disc golf courses that not only improve the grounds but also bring “FAMILY FRIENDLY” activities to many blighted areas in the city.  PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DO SOMETHING AWESOME.  The city COULD boast the NATION’S  PREMIER URBAN DISC GOLF course.  You would be surprised how many people would play Penn Valley park on a daily basis.
Thank you,
Tim Becks

Tim Becks
Curtis & Associates, Inc.
3515 W. 75th St., Suite 102
Prairie Village, KS 66208
(913) 319-8975 - direct
(913) 319-8970 - fax
tbecks@curtis-associatesinc.com
www.curtisnfp.net
« Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 05:03:00 PM by chi chi rodweez »

asjzn6

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Re: Penn valley
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2014, 11:02:44 AM »
This is quite impressive, way to go Tim.
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jack

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Re: Penn valley
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2014, 08:50:16 AM »
Though this notion is not new, it is also not safe.  It may be a safe course if a super short 9 hole course were to be put in, but would be nothing that we would want to enjoy as a disc golf community.  It also would create I am certain many instances of safety for passing cars, patrons of the duck pond, and disc golfers.  Ultimately until Broadway is redirected and the road removed the notion of a course in Penn Valley isn't feasible from a standpoint of safety and enjoyment of play.

This has been discussed over the years as a "pipe dream" for many, myself included, but after careful analysis of the available land and taking into account ALL LEVELS of disc golfers, this isn't safe to consider.

Here is some comments from 3 years ago.  Initially I believe in 2002 I was approached by P&R and the neighborhood association for exploration into this option, and it just isn't safe folks.

http://kcfdc.org/forum/index.php?topic=6291.msg49203#msg49203
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jack

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Re: Penn valley
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2014, 09:29:14 AM »
One component that may get lost is the notion that there is a 50 acres of land there.  That includes the land that is to the East of Broadway as well where there are softball fields, the dog park, etc.....so keep that in mind as well.

Again I hated saying this isn't safe and shouldn't be considered at the time, especially with 2003 worlds right aroud the corner then.  Having a place to send people when we only had 5 area places to play really at the time (Swope, Rosedale, Olathe, WyCo, WW) really was something that I was EXCITED about looking to push through.  Knowing even then that we had Cliff, and Blue Valley already being moved forward by P&R.  At that time we were in conversations as well with Shawnee Mission Park, Lees Summit, and exploring Riverside and Heritage Park for the future locations.  I was working as well on Hidden Valley Park with their associations to help as well.

Well here we are, some 12 years later......All of the above have gone in, and we can add, Private courses Come and gone as well with Teds's and Bill's.....and add 3 in Smithville, Kearney, Lake Olathe, P-Hill, Blue Springs, Yates, Fox Hill, Liberty, Platte City, Perry & Atchison (close cut off there....but you see where I am going).  There are plans in place for at least 5 other courses in the area that I know about right now, with at least 4 others exploring the idea. 

Bottom line, we have to do what is safe to continue to see support from our community leaders.  If we put in a course that isnt' safe, the negative press will harm that growth.  Now again I feel that our BIGGEST FAIL right now, is the growth of membership and ownership within the club.  We have as you can see above grown nicely as an organization to help promote and foster that development over the past decade to entice places to feel comfortable with the sport.  But we haven't grown the organziation to mirror that course growth.  We have grown about 300% of the courses in town, and maybe grown the club membership to a little over 300 active, or up about 100% from our numbers of active members in 2002.  We need more members to help us get things done in the parks, and to help us maintain and keep that high level of course maintenance and partnerships with the P&R locally that we have. 

I digress, but it is something that concerns me a lot.  Until we can have 30 people showing up at workdays consistently, the goal of having additional parks should be scrutinized completely.  If the P&R will guarantee their staff will maintain the course after design that is one thing, but one of our biggest selling points to P&R is that we take ownership, we partner with them to ensure that the course is in good repair, and we work collectively to help keep that land they trust us with in good shape.  At times I feel as though we FAIL on that effort, because everyone plays, and many don't help.  If we all worked to keeping the park clean, removing trash, and cooperating with each other, and it wasn't the same people over and over, we would all win.

I am not saying we don't all help, I am saying that we need to push our community to have over 500 active members.  We should, we are being beat by the St. Louis club in membership, and Des Moines is close.  We have better courses, better people, and we shouldn't even see them in our mirror.  We are better than them but we can't seem to get everyone to see that.  Let's make a goal this year to get over 600 active members.  That would be a 100% increase from our current list.  If everyone one of us got 1 person to sign up, and one person to renew that hasn't in a couple of years, we are there.


Then I think we can call ourselves the best disc golf club in the world.  Right now, we just live in the best disc golf community, lets be better than we think we can.  Let's make ourselves better, let's be the best we can.

If we reach 600 active members this year, I will personally buy a dunk tank and take the seat, and work on getting others for the seat at the club championships.  Interested?
===o  {>[]----
Jack Lowe-
Parks Development Director for KCFDC
Multiple PDGA Worlds TD
Course Designs
913.485.5123-C
"Disc Golf-
Like ball golf, only faster,
cheaper, and healthier!"

eeastwood

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Re: Penn valley
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2014, 12:27:29 PM »
I agree with Jack here.   I see several new courses going in and several more cities that are exploring the possibility and I don't see that slowing down anytime soon.  Unfortunately, as Jack pointed out,our club is not growing at the same pace.   As a club, we need to focus on really two things in the near future to support these new courses along with maintaining our current courses.  And that is to 1.  increase our membership and 2. increase their participation.  I heard some good ideas from Eric K. at the Board meeting in regards to KCFDC schwag that I think will help with exposure and help build the membership base.  Last year, I put some effort in regards to this with the hats and collared shirts with KCFDC logos and frankly I was surprised it wasn't more popular, but Eric K. is going in a slightly different direction and it will likely be more successful.

Nonetheless, I have had some of my own ideas that I've been mulling over the last year that I think is a good time to roll out now.  It is tied to how we are structured as a club. Basically my idea is that we have mini-clubs within the KCFDC.  I would have to read the club bylaws but perhaps officially they would be Committees.  These Committees or mini-clubs would be responsible for essentially the same thing as the entire club does, but it can break it down to the more local level at the courses you frequent the most.  We could find out from our members (on signup form and contact those already active) what they feel is their home course  (#1) and then maybe their #2 and #3 courses that they frequently play.  The leader of the committee could either be assigned by the Board or voted on by committee members.  The leader would then pull from this group to assign course coordinator roles, league coordinator roles, work day organizer, P&R interface, or other assignments.   In some cases, these roles may be the same person, but it would give them more people to pull from to help with activities such work days and other initiatives at their home courses and prevent them from getting burned out by doing all the work themselves.  You wouldn’t have to limit member participation to a single committee either.    Now I think the Committee Leader has to be responsible to reaching out to everyone within their committee and not just pick and choose their friends to come help and then complain that others aren’t pulling their weight.  Not that ever happens now.   ;) 

We could have contests between Committees, who has the most members, the largest increase in membership from that committee area, the largest league participation, the most work day volunteers, etc. with rewards to winning competitions be determined by the Board.  Perhaps X amount in course improvement funds or win the right to host a specific tournament (KCWO or club championships).  I was thinking you could have bag tags or patches made for each course and then volunteers could earn a course bag tag or patch for so many hours donated.  If they come to multiple work days or meet a certain threshold of hours donated, then maybe we could give away additional schwag, either KCFDC or a specific committee shirts or whatever.  At this time, I don’t think it makes sense for every course to have their own committee, but perhaps later on down the road it would.  I was thinking the following groupings
Under KS VP:  1.  P.C.Lakeside 2. WycoSM 3. RosieUPDown and 4. future KS courses (PVHeritage)   
Under MO VP:  1.  BlueCliff 2.  BSLegacy 3. sWopeWW 4.  future MO courses CassCo (PHillBelRay)

Thoughts?



jhinck2

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Re: Penn valley
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2014, 02:16:11 PM »
I don't know anything about advertising, but I'm sure printing off that many fliers would be somewhat expensive (especially if on colored paper or with colored font).  However, I think that those fliers are a great idea.  Now, the key would be to have them available at ALL disc golf retailers in the area.  I'm talking Dick's Sporting Goods, Walmart, Target, OKLAHOMA JOES, etc.  I can't imagine how many people go through these stores/gas station on a weekly basis.  Everyone pretty well knows what the discs are for now, but likely have no idea about a club in Kansas City.  With the amount of flyers at the register, surely one more would be feasible...
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eeastwood

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Re: Penn valley
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2014, 03:49:44 PM »
Eric,  by course committee is how it is currently structured.   

One person is not a committee.  And it's not working.  Fewer people are playing leagues.  Our growth of membership has not kept up with the growth of disc golfers in the area. 

robm

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Re: Penn valley
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2014, 06:06:21 PM »
Um, don't crucify me, but maybe we have enough courses?
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eeastwood

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Re: Penn valley
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2014, 07:34:47 PM »
There are never enough courses. 

john theiss

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Re: Penn valley
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2014, 11:11:56 AM »
There are never enough courses.

Not crucifying rob, but are there too many playgrounds, tennis courts, basketball courts in KC metro?  Not all folks want to drive to have a fitness opportunity, nor want to spend the time driving, so am not sure when there are too many courses as long they being visited and utilized, then they are a worth while entity.  Mowing costs become an issue, but if a town only has one course then mowing should never be an issue.  If they have several courses, I believe that shorter courses and 9 holers are a great way to go to and grow the sport ie Penn Valley Park(why not a 9 holer here?).   These smaller courses are easier to maintain, more beginner friendly, and often will fit into an established park  with all of their preexisting  amenities.  More courses in my opinion means more opportunities(for growth of sport and club.)  due to proximity  and ease of finding a course.   

Printing professional looking flyers and signs off in color is a drop in the bucket for the reach and scope in the present and future.  The issue is lack of space or no access on  some of kiosks in town.  I agree with Tracy about marketing and we need to be more obnoxious with our marketing and really get it out there.  I would still like to see "KCFDC League tonight" signs during league.  On those signs you could list out
1 history of club
2 what we do
3 and how to get involved etc

Our problems of too many courses is better than many towns who wish they had more than  a couple places to play. 

Utz

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Re: Penn valley
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2014, 10:21:49 PM »
Folks,

Draw up your plans and have an actual road map for new ideas. Present them to the board and we all can make change happen. Getting the brains of many on an idea will help it flourish.

I agree that we need a new way to manage courses. But how can we make this possible? Accountability and framework make this sort of thing happen.

League participation has not dropped. Leagues and Events are apart of our mission statement

Our Mission: To provide an exceptional disc golf experience in Kansas City while focusing on competition, conservation, education, partnerships, & philanthropy. We strive to make disc golf attractive to all local players, help our parks, and entice others to visit!

Quote
The club does little to nothing in promotion of its core purpose.
I respectfully disagree.

Quote
I am sure plenty of current members don't even know what the club is really about
You're right. Not everyone is going to "get it" but it's up to us to educate them.

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showmeDoug

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Re: Penn valley
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2014, 12:02:07 AM »
I do think people want to help make the courses better, but a little recognition never hurts. What if you could earn a spot at a club sponsored tourney by putting in some volunteer hours at a local course? A Earn your Green Free tourney. Or EARN mulligans, by volunteering, to be used at the first round of the club champion. Also, I agree with John  - a nine hole course at Penn Valley would be a great way to go - better than an unused field.
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eeastwood

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Re: Penn valley
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2014, 08:33:20 AM »
Draw up your plans and have an actual road map for new ideas. Present them to the board and we all can make change happen. Getting the brains of many on an idea will help it flourish.

I agree that we need a new way to manage courses. But how can we make this possible? Accountability and framework make this sort of thing happen.

League participation has not dropped. Leagues and Events are apart of our mission statement

My proposal needs flushed out a bit more before it would be ready for a roadmap or proposal, which is why I posted on the forum to increase discussion on his topic and generate more ideas or better ones.

You're right, I don't have evidence that league participation has dropped.  It may only be my perception and the specific leagues that I tend to frequent have dropped.  And it maybe that there are more leagues now and the number of league players is spread across them, meaning per league there look to be fewer when in fact they may be the same or greater.  However, I do think that league participation could dramatically increase, if we improve promotability and increase our active membership. 

jack

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Re: Penn valley
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2014, 08:57:25 AM »
SAFETY for the 9 holer at Penn Valley.  When I say PITCH and PUTT, I mean it.  That is an option and I notified the P&R about it.  Realistically though with 45,000 cars a day on a minimum (I would bet since it doesn't take Broadway into account, it is closer to 75,000 daily on both sides) and the proximity of a course with errant or agitated discs it is one bad shot away from irritating a community about us.

Now bear in mind Rosedale has a similar issue on #18, but the cars impacted there are coming up the hill, generally going significantly slower, and has many trees to protect the flight path.  Just an overview of the available land space would make the average hole about 180' with only a couple over 250' for the 9 hole design there that makes sense from a safety stance.

I am all for fun little courses (look at Platte City course....) that make sense where safety will not be a factor, however you have an extremely multi-use park with regards to duck watching, fishing, and congestion of the roads close by.  For the safety component with the topography, it doesn't make sense.

As for don't we have enough courses....well........the issue isn't (in my mind) quantity, as it is quality.  The better idea in my head has always been how do we get a practice basket in every park, maybe 2-3, not really courses, but awareness.  Now that raises awareness and then would direct people to investigate to learn more.

But then I digress, I want to see the 72 hole UBER course up and down I-35 with 2-3 holes at every rest area......
===o  {>[]----
Jack Lowe-
Parks Development Director for KCFDC
Multiple PDGA Worlds TD
Course Designs
913.485.5123-C
"Disc Golf-
Like ball golf, only faster,
cheaper, and healthier!"

jack

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Re: Penn valley
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2014, 09:06:05 AM »
This quote that the Nailer just put in about the Burbank course is spot on....
http://kcfdc.org/forum/index.php?topic=10163.0 about
http://www.dailybreeze.com/general-news/20140215/woman-disfigured-in-park-disc-golf-incident-suing-manhattan-beach
“You always have to think about (disc golfers) are going to miss. It can be dangerous if folks are unaware of disc golfers around them. ... The smaller the space, the worse it’s going to be.”

That is not the press that we want to see about Disc Golf.  We need positive items, not items that draw to the issue of "players are asked not to throw where people congregate".  How many times have you played with someone that said, "they should know it's a disc golf course" attitude.  Now then be MINDFUL, that most of you reading this notation aren't the people that I am referring to.  If you are reading this, you are already in the list of people that could make it work.  That isn't my issue, my issue is the people that say "screw it, throw anyway...."  You know them, I know them, everyone does, and if you, I or someone trusted isn't there to stop them, as a designer, I must make it so that they don't have that option to do what they shouldn't do.

It's a luxury item, it takes space, and that space is very limited at Penn Valley.

Can one be put in, sure it can, should one be put in, no it shouldn't.  Not at this time in the park's current configuration.  I do have a layout though already done that would address most of my personal concerns already in regards to the scenarios that scare me about the park.  The issue though is, will it be safe for the disc golfers, the passerby's, and cars throttling through the area, the answer to me is no, it really wouldn't be.

If it were the only park that we had to use then this subject would be better suited, but it isn't, we have other land that we use to have better courses.....really we are entirely spoiled in KC, some of us get it.  The simple fact that we can argue about "having another course in our town" is proof.   The fact that the P&R respect and partner with us to the point that Tim's note said reach out to the KCFDC already says that this club has a lot more going on for it than most.

Bottom line though is that through the years those before us, and those after us, must look at the safety of the designs in the locations that we work to install to remain vigilant in our hopes of keeping the sport moving in the direction we have helped.

Communication is the key in many aspects, and this is a great way to show it.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 09:15:30 AM by jack »
===o  {>[]----
Jack Lowe-
Parks Development Director for KCFDC
Multiple PDGA Worlds TD
Course Designs
913.485.5123-C
"Disc Golf-
Like ball golf, only faster,
cheaper, and healthier!"