2014 Midwest Amateur Championships - PDGA B Tier - Kansas City - August 2/3

[thankyoupeter]

As for Loomis comments, I have already addressed them, I have never be as embarrassed about disc golf in Kansas City as I was on Sunday listening to him spew misinformation about the rules.  I have never ever in my 30+ years of playing ever heard someone go off on their own agenda with no consideration for the actual rules of play.  I know that Scott and DD have addressed it, and I talked with them about it directly.

What exactly was said here? 

[jack]

essentially he made his own rules that contradicted the some PDGA rules in a nutshell on top of belittling competitors.

Again though I feel that this was resolved very well by Scott for the future.

[eeastwood]

No kidding.  I am intrigued.  In this day and age, didn't anyone have a smart phone recording what Loomis said? 

As for the Utz situation, that IS unfortunate.  That's too bad.  And I personally think whoever observed his caddy drinking should have notified both of them at the time of the infraction, that it was a violation and pulled the TD in at that time.  I think to wait until after the round is over, gives them the impression that you (the player) are okay with it whether you or aren't.  That is the rule and it MUST be enforced.  If you don't like the rule, then take the proper steps to get the rule changed.     

[Utz]

That's all good Jack, but according to PDGA rules, I could have been issued a warning for caddie misconduct. If I had been drinking, or even spotted with it in my hand, it is an automatic DQ at B-tier and above tourneys.

[Utz]

What rules exactly did Loomis get incorrect? He was just going over the rules very aggressively, but he's a little weird...we all know that..

[Danny Rodriguez]

Thank you DD for a great tourney.  I had a blast even though my score wasn't what I was hoping for. 

The only rule Loomis gave that I was unsure if it was correct was on hole 3 (because the situation was potentially dangerous, and it was slick as snot)  was to encourage people who threw down the hill on #3 to figure out where you went "OB" on the tree line and take a penalty and throw from that spot instead of re-teeing it up on the slick box or walking down the hill and risking a nasty fall.   there was a big backup and I'm sure they wanted people to stay safe and keep it moving as well.

great times.

Utz,  great tourney,  unfortunate, but like you said,  you knew you threw well and you did, so you get to take that with you.

[jamidanger]

I think free relief from dangerous lie was implied for the safety of players and taken by rec players in the rain at ww. it was tough spotting down there, and dangerous sidehills made for some messy muddy situations. also since billy nelson did not win his division he should stay an am until he does.

[jack]

That's all good Jack, but according to PDGA rules, I could have been issued a warning for caddie misconduct. If I had been drinking, or even spotted with it in my hand, it is an automatic DQ at B-tier and above tourneys.

No, it's not, it is AUTOMATIC, weed or alcohol, AUTOMATIC your caddy is an extension of you.
http://www.pdga.com/rules/competition-manual/section-3-player-code-conduct/35-carts-and-caddies
C is most relevant, your caddy becomes YOU in a PDGA event.  B could qualify but C is the more pressing on this instance.


B. Players will have the option to bring a caddie or carrying device during their round of play. A player's caddie is subject to all items within the PDGA Rules of Play and the PDGA Competition Manual including all applicable dress codes.

C. Players choosing to use a caddie will be solely responsible for their caddie's conduct from the two minute warning until the players cards are turned in. Misconduct by a caddie may subject both the player and caddie to disqualification and/or suspension.
Continuing on this.....

http://www.pdga.com/rules/competition-manual/section-3-player-code-conduct/33-player-misconduct
3.3
10 Possession of alcohol from the start of play until the player's scorecard is submitted is not allowed. Such possession shall result in immediate disqualification at PDGA events sanctioned at B-Tier or higher. The Tournament Director may, at his sole discretion, elect to issue a warning to the offending player in lieu of disqualification solely at PDGA events sanctioned at C-tier and below. If a player has been previously issued a warning for alcohol possession at the same event, all subsequent violations shall result in immediate disqualification.

As long as it is brought to the TD before the Awards have been presented, is fair game.  You don't have to drink it, you (or your CADDIE) merely have to be in possession of it during play.  This is why I leave things in the car during PDGA rounds.

What rules exactly did Loomis get incorrect? He was just going over the rules very aggressively, but he's a little weird...we all know that..

As for Loomis he made up rules against the guidelines.  The basic most simple was calling the line IB not OB. 
Out-of-bounds
http://www.pdga.com/rules/official-rules-disc-golf/800-introduction/80002-definitions
    An area designated by the Director from which a disc may not be played, and within which a stance may not be taken. The out-of-bounds line extends a plane vertically upward and downward. The out-of-bounds line is part of the out-of-bounds area.
Loomis response-"I don't care Jack that is the way we are doing it here......"-it was wrong, it isn't correct.....another example
http://www.pdga.com/rules/official-rules-disc-golf/801-general/80104-courtesy
E. Littering is a courtesy violation.
Loomis stated that this was an AUTOMATIC DISQUALIFICATION, now I am not saying I don't agree with it, but that isn't a rule, you can't change rules, just like he banned "lit cigarettes only" because he was concerned about fire safety at WW on Saturday he felt that it needed to be enforced on Sunday as well.  Here is the thing, you can't unilaterally tell people something that is clearly habit forming that they can't do it when they show up.  Now if they knew heading into the Tourney it was a nonsmoking event, they could have prepared, but again, KC isn't a No-smoke park (yet) so that isn't a rule, but rather a decision that yet again Loomis decided to create out of nowhere other than his own decisions.

Those are the three most pointed, and I realize that they were all on Loomis.  This is why I protested from the start, I signed my card with the word Protest clearly on it.  You can't change rules because you like them better than others.  He wasn't the TD, he had no authority to do so, yet he acted as if he did.  This has nothing to do with the tone and demeanor that he gave these speeches in, even when he contradicted himself on other cards as I was told later in the day.

I really didn't want to go into a Loomis bash on this but it clearly upset me and I dealt with it as I saw fit.  I talked with Scott and Pete about it, I still carried it on though, because I know we are better than that in KC.  I enjoy reading Loomis' prose as most do, in fact I have paid him to write, so I enjoy it maybe more than others.  But clearly that wasn't the case that I saw and was privy to on Sunday.

Safety concerns I got and understood, even though Loomis didn't convey it well, it was very vague and subjective, HOWEVER, Pete was down there enforcing the same guidelines to all the groups, and it made sense to do so based on the weather, that wasn't the ruling issue I had issues with on Loomis, my issues were clearly his own violation of the written rule that he decided was different.

[spnachio]

So if Loomis wasn't the TD at WW, who was? 

[thankyoupeter]

I think free relief from dangerous lie was implied for the safety of players and taken by rec players in the rain at ww. it was tough spotting down there, and dangerous sidehills made for some messy muddy situations. also since billy nelson did not win his division he should stay an am until he does.

Ok I'm confused.  I know you can take optional relief with one penalty stroke, but I thought this had to be along the line of play, with the line of play being a straight line from your disc to the basket.  If you threw 50' down into the woods on hole 3 at WW, it seems the line of play would continue to extend back into the woods, with the exception of the open area that looks down into the KCMO water plant.  Optional relief isn't moving horizontally back into the fairway.  So here, if you threw into the woods and you didn't want to throw from your lie (or were unable to), it seems like your only option would be to re-tee throwing 3 (assuming that was where you threw down the hill from).  Am I missing something here? 

[robm]

I think free relief from dangerous lie was implied for the safety of players and taken by rec players in the rain at ww. it was tough spotting down there, and dangerous sidehills made for some messy muddy situations. also since billy nelson did not win his division he should stay an am until he does.

Ok I'm confused.  I know you can take optional relief with one penalty stroke, but I thought this had to be along the line of play, with the line of play being a straight line from you disc to the basket.  If you threw 50' down into the woods on hole 3 at WW, it seems the line of play would continue to extend back into the woods, with the exception of the open area that looks down into the KCMO water plant.  Optional relief isn't moving horizontally back into the fairway.  So here, if you threw into the woods and you didn't want to throw from your lie (or were unable to), it seems like your only option would be to re-tee throwing 3 (assuming that was where you threw down the hill from).  Am I missing something here?

You are not missing anything.  Your interpretation is correct.

[jack]

It was a safety decision and ruled the same the entire day due to the tireless efforts of Pete Spotting down there.  You are correct in the rule interpretation, HOWEVER, this was conveyed and done the same manner so all the affected players in all the affected pools played it the same way.

SAFETY FIRST was clearly the motto on this rainy day and hence the immediate change.  It makes sense on that one.  Safety is first, it was really more of a position that created a fictional OB/optional line.  Similar to what I do at Cliff Drive on hole #12, where the player option on the hole can go to the drop zone (+1 stroke) instead of trampling down the hill for safety.  Makes sense, and speed of play improves.

[SteelerDoug]

essentially he made his own rules that contradicted the some PDGA rules in a nutshell on top of belittling competitors.

Again though I feel that this was resolved very well by Scott for the future.

Belittled is putting it mildly but I'll let it go.

Thank you Jack for handling this in a professional manner with DD and Scott.  I will disregard my email to them.

[thankyoupeter]

It was a safety decision and ruled the same the entire day due to the tireless efforts of Pete Spotting down there.  You are correct in the rule interpretation, HOWEVER, this was conveyed and done the same manner so all the affected players in all the affected pools played it the same way.

SAFETY FIRST was clearly the motto on this rainy day and hence the immediate change.  It makes sense on that one.  Safety is first, it was really more of a position that created a fictional OB/optional line.  Similar to what I do at Cliff Drive on hole #12, where the player option on the hole can go to the drop zone (+1 stroke) instead of trampling down the hill for safety.  Makes sense, and speed of play improves.

Hmmm.  So a TD (or course coordinator) can designate a drop zone if a disc goes into an inbounds treacherous area, AND the player has the option to throw from their lie (if they can find it), or the drop zone?  A potential issue with this would seem to be the player who is determined to find their disc and play from their lie, regardless of the danger of the hill.  After 3 minutes of searching, is their disc considered lost, with the required throw from their previous lie plus one stroke?  Or can they still go to the drop zone after the 3 minutes have passed?  Or do they need to time the search and declare after 2 minutes and 59 seconds they are throwing from the drop zone (since that would be advantageous over re-teeing)? 

I have no problem taking safety into account, but I wonder if this "new" OB along the woods on hole 3 at WW was played the same way on Sunday .  For instance, if someone went 75' into the woods, they were probably happy to be throwing 3 from a meter outside of the woods.  However, if someone went 1' into the woods, did they have to option to play from their lie?  It just creates an odd situation where one player throwing might take a meter in from a fictional OB line and throw, then the next player throws from an area that was considered OB on the previous throw. 

[jack]

The way it was stated during--(deleted cause it was a cheap shot)it was at the discretion of the player.  In all honesty it would boil down to a group decision on where that "wooded line" is.

As a lost disc they would have to rethrow, at 2:59 they could say I am going to throw from where it went in....normally.....however in this instance during the meeting, the 3 minute started in Loomis' mind from the time the player started to look for it, and no clock needs to be started (forgot about that comment....)  so it would again be based at the subjectivity of the player to determine the time that they actually started, not as the rules states when time is actually started by a member of the group:
http://www.pdga.com/rules/official-rules-disc-golf/804-the-throw/80405-lost-disc

A. A disc shall be declared lost if the player cannot locate it within three minutes after arriving at the spot where it was last seen. Any player in the group or an official may begin the timing of the three minutes, and must inform the group that the timing has begun. All players in the group must assist in searching for the disc. The disc shall be declared lost upon expiration of the three minutes.

Retorspect, should have done this: A director may designate a drop zone to be used for lost disc on a hole.  The TD always has that option, but given the rain and the time crunch, sometimes you do what you can to make things flow properly, which is what they did.  In no way was it a method to divert competitive play.