Author Topic: WaterWorks Hole 17  (Read 651 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

jhinck2

  • Pro Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 899
    • View Profile
WaterWorks Hole 17
« on: July 15, 2014, 03:22:52 PM »
This was partially brought up on the Midwest Amateur Championships discussion, but I didn't want to thread drift.  Whilst playing the July 4th superclass round, an approach was made to hole 17's long right basket down by the road.  The shot went long and over the street/parking lot pavement and landed in the dirt/grassy area that is part of hole 12 (we call it the peninsula placement for 12).  While this is typically played as out of bounds in leagues and such, the comment was made that technically there is not a defined OB line to make that out of bounds.  Theoretically the line extends from the basket north towards #13's fairway, turns right at the end of the pavement, hangs another right and then comes back towards the basket.  I do not believe that there is a line extending to those backyards over there for OB; the line follows the pavement per the last sentence.  We know that hole 9's fairway is certainly OB, but what about across the street on the backside of hole 12's peninsula green?  Tis the question:  WAS TANK OB OR NOT?!?!?! 
Jordan Hinck
Team Latitude 64
PDGA #45624
KCFDC #1339

jamidanger

  • 1000 Rated Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 1454
  • 1= be safe 2= be courteous 3= all holes be par 3
    • View Profile
    • my goal is a pdga rating of 420
Re: WaterWorks Hole 17
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2014, 03:58:18 PM »
not OB
espouse elucidation

SteelerDoug

  • Am Poster
  • *
  • Posts: 75
    • View Profile
Re: WaterWorks Hole 17
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2014, 04:24:59 PM »
but what about across the street on the backside of hole 12's peninsula green?  Tis the question:  WAS TANK OB OR NOT?!?!?!


From how I read it, NOT, because of 804.04 Out-of-Bounds A and B.

A - A disc is out-of-bounds if its position is clearly and completely surrounded by an out-of-bounds area. (There is no OB area marked.)

B - The out-of-bounds line is part of the out-of-bounds area. (There are no OB lines to be seen.  Grass all the around the pavement is safe.)

http://www.pdga.com/rules/official-rules-disc-golf/804-the-throw/80404-out-of-bounds

definition of Out-of-bounds
    An area designated by the Director from which a disc may not be played, and within which a stance may not be taken. The out-of-bounds line extends a plane vertically upward and downward. The out-of-bounds line is part of the out-of-bounds area.

"Great throw Tank."

gleauzzzinier

  • Am Poster
  • *
  • Posts: 140
  • please stop talking while people are throwing
    • View Profile
Re: WaterWorks Hole 17
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2014, 10:35:52 PM »
ob. over or across.

hberciunas

  • Pro Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 644
    • View Profile
Re: WaterWorks Hole 17
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2014, 08:06:50 AM »
This is where common sense should come in to play.  OB. That is not how the hole was inteded to be played. Don't use stretched technicality to get yourself out of a bad throw. It's about the integrity of the game.
PDGA #53842
KCFDC #1406
2012 KCFDC tag: 217
2013:            DD:           Beer League:
2014: 48

jhinck2

  • Pro Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 899
    • View Profile
Re: WaterWorks Hole 17
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2014, 08:15:18 AM »
Waiting for a former TD to chime in.  Eh hem, Jack?  Scott?  Rick?  Obviously this can happen and if it happened to me in a tournament I would sure as heck appeal if it's not clearly defined.  I would play it both ways for sure.  I haven't paid attention to the layout for the MAC, but this might want to be cleared up before then!!
Jordan Hinck
Team Latitude 64
PDGA #45624
KCFDC #1339

robm

  • Pro Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 984
    • View Profile
Re: WaterWorks Hole 17
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2014, 08:36:38 AM »
For the KCWO 2013 when I was spotting on that hole for Pro Masters, it was called safe.  Per the TD in attendance.
KCFDC: 1507
PDGA: 51540
Tournament map: http://goo.gl/maps/AAYAj

jamidanger

  • 1000 Rated Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 1454
  • 1= be safe 2= be courteous 3= all holes be par 3
    • View Profile
    • my goal is a pdga rating of 420
Re: WaterWorks Hole 17
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2014, 08:42:56 AM »
never seen it called ob, except by stiles on this forum.
espouse elucidation

gleauzzzinier

  • Am Poster
  • *
  • Posts: 140
  • please stop talking while people are throwing
    • View Profile
Re: WaterWorks Hole 17
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2014, 08:50:06 AM »
This is where common sense should come in to play.  OB. That is not how the hole was inteded to be played. Don't use stretched technicality to get yourself out of a bad throw. It's about the integrity of the game.
good eye jammydinger.

tallguy007kc

  • Pro Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 866
    • View Profile
Re: WaterWorks Hole 17
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2014, 09:06:26 AM »
I've never known it to be OB, but, that would come at the TD's discretion.  Simple as that.  ;D  (if it's a tourney, that is)  ::)
*******************
James McLaughlin
PDGA #39535

spnachio

  • Guest
Re: WaterWorks Hole 17
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2014, 09:25:37 AM »
Here's how we solve this: take Andy Portwoods son out for a round, have someone throw the same/similar shot, and if his boy yells "obeeee" then it's out. Plain and simple.

jack

  • 1000 Rated Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 7271
    • View Profile
Re: WaterWorks Hole 17
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2014, 09:32:52 AM »
would have been the Course Director in 2013, not the TD for certain on that.

As it plays, all OB is considered OB, therefore the fact that area is INBOUNDS, it would be considered IB.  Now a stipulation could be made (And moving forward may) that extending the West Parking lot area's OB in instances of hole #17 as an OB line could be made, but would have to be declared as such on programs, or covered in players meeting and would have to have a delineation in order to accomplish which COULD mess up people playing on #13.

This is an inherent issue in where we use the same land for multiple holes.  Just as throwing say 600' on the hole past the tree on #13 by the basket would still be considered in.  Because there is a "connector path" on #13 where it flows continuously it would be considered IB unless otherwise duly noted before the event.

That being said, it is a suck a$$ thing to do and in the scheme of things it should be considered OB for all intents and purposes.  It should be known that area is considered OB because, it quite frankly makes sense.  However to the letter of the ruling for an unspoken undefined event, yes that would be IB.  The future though will prevent that from happening by most in common agreement with the INTENT TO PLAY THE HOLE AS DESIGNED.  ****See Jack's face and reaction on Blue Valley after hearing about Nikko and McBeast on #9 and what changed in the future to prevent that from happening****
===o  {>[]----
Jack Lowe-
Parks Development Director for KCFDC
Multiple PDGA Worlds TD
Course Designs
913.485.5123-C
"Disc Golf-
Like ball golf, only faster,
cheaper, and healthier!"

tallguy007kc

  • Pro Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 866
    • View Profile
Re: WaterWorks Hole 17
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2014, 09:53:25 AM »
would have been the Course Director in 2013, not the TD for certain on that.

I stand corrected  ;D
*******************
James McLaughlin
PDGA #39535

white mccoy

  • Pro Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 342
    • View Profile
Re: WaterWorks Hole 17
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2014, 10:01:45 AM »
This is where common sense should come in to play.  OB. That is not how the hole was inteded to be played. Don't use stretched technicality to get yourself out of a bad throw. It's about the integrity of the game.

This is stupid.  The hole was not designed to play safe across that parking area.  There is an OB line, that wraps around the basket on the rock wall and around logs.  We can solve this by putting a simple line straight from center of parking area across 13's fairway.  13 is now an island (a really large one), and you cannot play 17 across the street.  Done.

Or we can play 17 to hole 12's peninsula basket, as we will do tonght and the MAC, and this area across road will now be safe.  No questions
Joe Hesting
#24884

jack

  • 1000 Rated Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 7271
    • View Profile
Re: WaterWorks Hole 17
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2014, 10:35:36 AM »
The problem is that the intent of #13 isn't to be an island, hence the problem with calling it that.  I guess in LIEU of the notion of having an island on #13, we could make it so that a line extended from the tee pad to the farthest NE corner of the parking lot would be considered OB, that would in essence create a more "standard" and defined OB on #12 that would have a starting and ending point....however some of my errant rollers then on #12 would be OB possibly, thus creating another issue.

This is yet again a reason that the peninsula shot is oddly placed, and wasn't thoroughly discussed when installed, part of the reason that only Course Designers should be putting in placements in addition to the course.  but that is my own thought.  I am not about to bash the work that Terry did out there, he did great things, I never thought that this placement, nor the one on #15 were the best moves though.....
===o  {>[]----
Jack Lowe-
Parks Development Director for KCFDC
Multiple PDGA Worlds TD
Course Designs
913.485.5123-C
"Disc Golf-
Like ball golf, only faster,
cheaper, and healthier!"