Author Topic: great day, bad day  (Read 5011 times)

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Timko

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Re: great day, bad day
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2008, 04:22:01 PM »
Hole #18 @ CLIFF is not a par 4, it is a long Par 3, as is #16, the only hole that is a par 4, would be #13 LONG to the old practice basket pin, so lest you think that you can change Par on my course...STOP IT.

The scores from the Mighty MO were around a par of 111 (or 110, I can't remember what I shot at Waterworks).  I would assume that the 3(or 2) extra strokes were from Cliff Drive.

Don't kill the messenger....

Sly

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Re: great day, bad day
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2008, 05:04:59 PM »
SSA is not equateable to par.

John Chapman

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Re: great day, bad day
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2008, 07:55:53 PM »
Hole #18 @ CLIFF is not a par 4, it is a long Par 3, as is #16, the only hole that is a par 4, would be #13 LONG to the old practice basket pin, so lest you think that you can change Par on my course...STOP IT.

The scores from the Mighty MO were around a par of 111 (or 110, I can't remember what I shot at Waterworks).  I would assume that the 3(or 2) extra strokes were from Cliff Drive.

Don't kill the messenger....

I counted Cliff Drive 13, 16, and 18 as par 4s at the Mighty Mo.  They are exactly that for most humans. 16 and 18 are probably easy par 4s for the long arms.  They are not easy 3s for the person who throws around 300' for drives.

SSA for the courses at Mighty Mo were roughly 53 for Cliff Drive, and 50 for Water Works, if memory serves. Par and SSA are not the same thing, nor should they be.  SSA is the score a 1000-rated player would expect to shoot on his average round.

Chap
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Tom

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Re: great day, bad day
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2008, 08:56:37 AM »
John,
I noticed the mighty mo scores are not displaying on the PDGA site.

John Chapman

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Re: great day, bad day
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2008, 11:01:25 AM »
John,
I noticed the mighty mo scores are not displaying on the PDGA site.

Yeah, I noticed that, too.  I already have a call into PDGA on that.

Chap
Missouri....our state animal is sterile, our state rock is lead, and we elected a dead guy to the U.S. Senate.  Of course, he was the best candidate.

Timko

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Re: great day, bad day
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2008, 02:16:05 PM »
13 - 5 (threw my upshot into the ground for a 4 for the 2nd round in a roc)
16 - 4
18 - 3 (yea!  birdie!)

jack

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Re: great day, bad day
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2008, 02:47:58 PM »
You guys are pathetic, Really..... 18 is a very attainable 3, 16 I can SORT of understand, but again 2 good shots should put you there.
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Timko

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Re: great day, bad day
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2008, 03:50:24 PM »
You guys are pathetic, Really..... 18 is a very attainable 3, 16 I can SORT of understand, but again 2 good shots should put you there.

agreed, 14 strokes certainly felt pathetic when 9 or 10 total for those three holes is quite reasonable to attain

How often do you 3 16 and 18 while making a 4 on 13? Possible, yes, reasonable, that may be pushing it.

I'm willing to be the average score is closer to 4 than 3.5 on 16.  With 18, it's a tweener, with an average in the 3.4-3.6 range probably.  Your 2nd shot on 16 is normally blind unless you crush the piss out of your drive.  18 is normally an approach type shot with a fairway driver or mid, so I'll give you that 3.  But any hole where the 2nd shot is blind is a par 4 in my book.

Schoen-hopper

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Re: great day, bad day
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2008, 10:04:42 PM »
Hole pars usually don't add up to course pars unless your rounding everything to 3 and 54.

Sly

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Re: great day, bad day
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2008, 09:15:03 AM »
That does not make any sense. Hole pars would have to add up to the course par. Otherwise, where does a course par come from?

CD

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Re: great day, bad day
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2008, 09:20:37 AM »
That does not make any sense. Hole pars would have to add up to the course par. Otherwise, where does a course par come from?

Hole pars usually don't add up to course pars unless your rounding everything to 3 and 54.

...and just WHERE does the phrase "That's just not up to par." come from? Huh? I'm not sure that guy knew... Most of us wanna be UNDER par! But of course, par is a standard, and everyone wants to raise the bar... or raise one more at the bar...
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Sly

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Re: great day, bad day
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2008, 09:29:39 AM »
Regarding holes 13, 16, and 18:

Hole 13 in the long placement is a par 4, but it is so wide open that good professional players probably made a mistake or missed their putt if they get a 4 on it.

Hole 16 is a very challenging par 3 for professional level players. Distance is not the key, placement is. The slope of the fairway, combined with the bottleneck as one approaches the putting area puts a premium on accuracey. While the second shot is blind, there is a light pole that is almost parallel to the basket. One can gage the distance of the second shot based upon the light pole. In some cases, a blind shot may be indicative of a par 4, but not on this hole. In high-level competition, good players will be familiar with where they should be throwing, where the "keys" are on the fairway (i.e. light pole), etc... I will concede that hole 16 could very well be considered a par 4 for amature-level competition, but in all honesty, par should be challenging to achieve, and just becasue an amature cannot achieve the par on a hole does not mean that the par should be changed for them. That is what separates amatures from professionals in any sport. Professionals are masters of their game.

Hole 18 is not a par 4. Two accurately placed shots and you can cash in from close to the pin. The second shot is not an easy one, but again, par should not be easy to achieve. And if amatures are getting 4's most often and professionals are getting 3's most often, that just reinforces why the professional players are in their division and the amatures are in theirs. That does not justify changing the par to 4 for the amatures.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2008, 02:06:55 PM by Sly »

Schoen-hopper

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Re: great day, bad day
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2008, 11:20:02 AM »
That does not make any sense. Hole pars would have to add up to the course par. Otherwise, where does a course par come from?

Yeah, that could be clarified.

Say you have a course where all the holes average about 3.3 strokes for the division you are considering for setting par.  If you call all the holes par 3's and you call the course par 54, the course par will be off by about 6 strokes.  Since the division averages about 62, that should be close to the number you use for the course par.  Otherwise we might as well call every course par 54 even if it averages 80.

Now I agree par should be challenging to get.  That is why you should choose pro or advanced division for setting it.  Most courses should be have their par set by the upper advanced division, or about 950 rated golf.  Pretty easy to guesstimate.  Take the SSA and subtract about 5 strokes and that is your course par.


Edit: That is my take on the matter.  There are a lot of other ways to look at it.  Ideally, the hole pars would add up pretty close to the course pars.  Depends on the design and the division.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2008, 11:22:48 AM by Schoen-hopper »