Author Topic: Divisions, what are they, and why should they be that way?  (Read 1420 times)

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jack

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Divisions, what are they, and why should they be that way?
« on: June 24, 2008, 10:46:04 AM »
The WyCo thread started a comment section about ProII, what are some thoughts about all the divisions that the PDGA offers, and what do you think we should look at locally?
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The Bird Father

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Re: Divisions, what are they, and why should they be that way?
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2008, 11:20:37 AM »
Didn't want to stir up a big mess, but in reality some of us will never be Pro's just because we don't have the time to commit.  On the same note, I want the feeling of being able to have competative play without being a "bagger" or donating money to watch someone completely making my game look like a novice.

How do you get better when someone crushes your score everytime you play and play good for an "Average" player but not a 990 or better round everytime, or you step down and become "that guy".

Why not divisions by ratings instead of age and sex?

Normal leagues have 4 divisions, never enough people to open others and womens is rare

Now -

Open
Women
Mast
Adv

Why not -

955 and above for cash (still forces people to get better)

955 and below for cash (good competition for all mid/experienced players that have all the plastic they will ever need, or prefer to spend money on the next nights league fees instead of getting another disc after 3 times cashing in the funny money)

955 and below for funny money (Adv basically)

900 and below for funny money (newbies)

Just ideas.....still haven't found a good reason for not splitting up the open money.....if you play leagues to "Make Money" then go on tour.  Aren't leagues to bring awareness to the sport and to introduce more people to our club and what we do for the community??  Make it fun, make it competetive, give everyone a chance to win.

« Last Edit: June 24, 2008, 11:22:15 AM by Slant »
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Re: Divisions, what are they, and why should they be that way?
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2008, 11:32:22 AM »
http://www.kansasdiscgolf.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2608&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60

This thread kinda drifted everywhere.  From sandbagging to questioning the PDGA divisional breaks to asking the question of what defines a pro and an am (might read and give us some help with this one).

As far as local leagues go, I think it is pretty much up to those dedicating the time to run them.  I run a league and I can say that I put a lot of time into it, even when I'm not at the course, updating all kinds of info (ace money, memberships, handicaps, disc inventory, etc....)

I can't say what would work best, me not being a particapant of your local leagues.  We use handicaps for everyone who isn't playing for cash in our league.  So one division is appropriate.  I could see how lumping all the amateur divisions together could create some conflict if there were a lot of players.  Funny money helps raise money for the club, which is a good thing.  Perhaps 2 amateur divisions would be better than 2 pro divisions.  Just a thought.

On the PDGA tournament scene, I could see some kind of pro 2 division working.  Other sports have more than one pro level.  There are a lot of players in this gray zone that this division could help with in our game.  As discussed in this thread, the added cash should go to the real pros.  There is some confusion on what options current amateurs and pros have now as far as playing on the other side.

The Bird Father

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Re: Divisions, what are they, and why should they be that way?
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2008, 11:40:46 AM »
* Per Chappy's Local Ratings *

Ratings based leagues:

955 & above - 53 players = 17.5% of club income (25 of which only have 5 rounds played)(Granted this means there isn't as much insentive for pros to play leagues with lower attendence, but so what, go on tour!!  This would help the concern of "raising money for the club")
955 & below - 121 players = 40.1% of club income
900 & below - 128 players = 42.4 % of club income

Looks to me like the club would want to gear leagues towards the 955 and below player since 83% of the income comes from that group of players.

I'll stop now....just my weekly rant.....

The club does good things and the people are great....just looking for a couple more options to play for money instead of plastic.......

Sincerly,
Your soon to be another local sandbagger in Adv selling plastic on e-bay.....
« Last Edit: June 24, 2008, 11:48:48 AM by Slant »
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John Chapman

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Re: Divisions, what are they, and why should they be that way?
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2008, 01:13:03 PM »
* Per Chappy's Local Ratings *

Ratings based leagues:

955 & above - 53 players = 17.5% of club income (25 of which only have 5 rounds played)(Granted this means there isn't as much insentive for pros to play leagues with lower attendence, but so what, go on tour!!  This would help the concern of "raising money for the club")
955 & below - 121 players = 40.1% of club income
900 & below - 128 players = 42.4 % of club income

Looks to me like the club would want to gear leagues towards the 955 and below player since 83% of the income comes from that group of players.

I'll stop now....just my weekly rant.....

The club does good things and the people are great....just looking for a couple more options to play for money instead of plastic.......

Sincerly,
Your soon to be another local sandbagger in Adv selling plastic on e-bay.....

Those numbers aren't entirely accurate, as you would have to also figure in the number of league nights the players in your groupings.

Again, Pro 2 is a decent option, but Masters would have to go away, or Pro 2 wouldn't fly.

Chap
Missouri....our state animal is sterile, our state rock is lead, and we elected a dead guy to the U.S. Senate.  Of course, he was the best candidate.

Timko

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Re: Divisions, what are they, and why should they be that way?
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2008, 01:39:26 PM »
* Per Chappy's Local Ratings *

Ratings based leagues:

955 & above - 53 players = 17.5% of club income (25 of which only have 5 rounds played)(Granted this means there isn't as much insentive for pros to play leagues with lower attendence, but so what, go on tour!!  This would help the concern of "raising money for the club")
955 & below - 121 players = 40.1% of club income
900 & below - 128 players = 42.4 % of club income

Looks to me like the club would want to gear leagues towards the 955 and below player since 83% of the income comes from that group of players.

I'll stop now....just my weekly rant.....

The club does good things and the people are great....just looking for a couple more options to play for money instead of plastic.......

Sincerly,
Your soon to be another local sandbagger in Adv selling plastic on e-bay.....

Those numbers aren't entirely accurate, as you would have to also figure in the number of league nights the players in your groupings.

Again, Pro 2 is a decent option, but Masters would have to go away, or Pro 2 wouldn't fly.

Chap

While that's an interesting idea (as well as gives people like me a chance of cashing on more than a blue moon basis), there's no way the Masters players in this town would go with that.

The Bird Father

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Re: Divisions, what are they, and why should they be that way?
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2008, 01:47:09 PM »

While that's an interesting idea (as well as gives people like me a chance of cashing on more than a blue moon basis), there's no way the Masters players in this town would go with that.


Since when did local masters start making the rules....if they don't go for it, then, in Jacks words, "Either you want to play for cash or you don't"

Goes back to making divisions by Age & Sex....other topics we may talk about would call this prejudice.

Just like senoir citizen discounts....why??  Aren't these the people that don't have to work anymore and are getting food paid for by retirement funds, social security and such?  Why should they get discounts?  They are not working, it's the people serving them that are doing the work but for less money now?  I understand student discounts because everybody is broke in college and if you weren't then you either worked your butt off or mommy and daddy paid for you to have a free ride.

Still waiting on a valid reason for non-ratings based league play......

« Last Edit: June 24, 2008, 01:59:28 PM by Slant »
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Re: Divisions, what are they, and why should they be that way?
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2008, 02:05:46 PM »
Here is another one...How many of the top 20 bag tags are held by Masters players???  Hard to tell but I know of several....which is fine they have played well and deserve it....but how does anyone under the age of 40 get a crack at these tags if they can't play masters???

You don't, you just have to hope that there isn't a masters division and those tag holders play in a division that a under 40 player is "Allowed" to play in.

If the divisions were ratings based a 2 yr old 500 rated player could play any division they wanted and have a chance at tags, cash, and even new people to play with.

With Age and Sex protected divisions you have a tendency to be playing with the same "clique" every time.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2008, 02:09:19 PM by Slant »
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Re: Divisions, what are they, and why should they be that way?
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2008, 02:07:38 PM »
Actually, I don't see any reason that Masters wouldn't go for Pro II.  With the current format of Open & Pro Masters, we get high rated Masters playing "down" in Pro Masters because the turnout is larger than Open and they will win more money or its easier to cash.  Pro II would eliminate that.

The only real changes would be that the Open division would be required for players with a rating > 955, and instead of Pro Masters (age protected) we would have Pro II (rating < 956).  

I think we should review the Am Divisions further.....I think Masters is still valid there.  I do like Slant's rating breakout there but I think it needs to go deeper ie 800 rated division.

 

The Bird Father

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Re: Divisions, what are they, and why should they be that way?
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2008, 02:13:20 PM »

I think we should review the Am Divisions further.....I think Masters is still valid there.  I do like Slant's rating breakout there but I think it needs to go deeper ie 800 rated division.
 

That is fine also....make as many breaks in ratings as you want...as long as you can always play any division that is above your rating and not below.

The point at hand is any male player under 40 has ONE option to play for cash...that is Open.

What percentage of disc golfers are male and under 40??? Game, Set, Match
« Last Edit: June 24, 2008, 02:26:59 PM by Slant »
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John Chapman

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Re: Divisions, what are they, and why should they be that way?
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2008, 02:52:51 PM »

While that's an interesting idea (as well as gives people like me a chance of cashing on more than a blue moon basis), there's no way the Masters players in this town would go with that.


Since when did local masters start making the rules....if they don't go for it, then, in Jacks words, "Either you want to play for cash or you don't"

Goes back to making divisions by Age & Sex....other topics we may talk about would call this prejudice.

Just like senoir citizen discounts....why??  Aren't these the people that don't have to work anymore and are getting food paid for by retirement funds, social security and such?  Why should they get discounts?  They are not working, it's the people serving them that are doing the work but for less money now?  I understand student discounts because everybody is broke in college and if you weren't then you either worked your butt off or mommy and daddy paid for you to have a free ride.

Still waiting on a valid reason for non-ratings based league play......




Most people like it the way it is.  Pretty darn valid as far as I'm concerned.  I've got no real wish to change to pure ratings-based play.

Masters didn't make the current rules, they just have adapted to them over the years.  Right now in our town, there's more Masters age players that would play pro in leagues than non-Masters aged players, and the stats bear that out.  Add to the fact that many folks play Masters purely for the social aspects (it is league, after-all, not a real serious competition, more like competition lite), and Chris is right, most local Masters probably wouldn't want to play Pro 2.  But you never know until you present the option.

A couple of things on Tracy's post:

There should be no minimum ratings on any of the divisions.  Anyone who wants to play "up" should be able to do so. (and I know it's just a sample...we're brainstorming here).

I tend to agree with Tracy on the age-protection thing (at least at the Pro level).  Adv. Masters seems to work well at PDGA events.

Someone should try the Pro2 concept and run with it one night.  It would only work well at a larger league (I mean, it won't work at Cliff Drive league, but probably will everywhere else), so perhaps we'll try it one night at Rosey.

Chap

« Last Edit: June 24, 2008, 03:02:50 PM by John Chapman »
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Re: Divisions, what are they, and why should they be that way?
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2008, 03:33:06 PM »
Dude! Did you read Chappy's entire response? He says they will try it, so please be nice. The way my year has progressed, I may try it myself... just kidding, somehow my local rated rounds have been higher than my tourney play...

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tedkeith

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Re: Divisions, what are they, and why should they be that way?
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2008, 04:19:10 PM »
I normally play Masters (and yes we do rule) but would have no problem with playing Pro II. I do like the Masters division in a tournament setting but league play for me is mostly a social event and exercise. I would see Pro II as an opportunity to play with more people. Don't get me wrong I do enjoy the Masters crowd, all limping around the courses complaining about our backs, knees, ankles, and such  :)  If we went Pro II the younger folks would just have to listen to us gripe while we whooped on 'em  :D

will

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Re: Divisions, what are they, and why should they be that way?
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2008, 04:24:28 PM »
i'll take you down old man.


but please let me be cali.  my back you know.

Timko

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Re: Divisions, what are they, and why should they be that way?
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2008, 04:52:33 PM »
Chap, can you give me an idea of what an average master has to shoot (round rating) to win and to cash in league around here?  If they're still shooting 980 golf to win, then we're back to the same problem; Masters being forced to play in Open, which most don't want to do. 

Also, where does the largest percentage of Masters fall in terms of rating?  In particular, those that play Masters at league (not sure if that's information you record and can use to drill down with, but if so, it would also be interesting to note).