Hole Distances - Current Configuration

[phisherman_77]

Here are the updated hole distances after the latest reconfig.

Short Positions
----------------

1 - 362
2 - 245
3 - 362
4 - 353
5 - 290
6 - 270
7 - 215
8 - 410
9 - 295
10 - 552
11 - 260
12 - 290
13 - 350
14 - 185
15 - 275
16 - 213
17 - 353
18 - 262
---------

total = 5542

Long Positions
---------------
1 - 495
2 - 280
3 - 592
4 - 471
5 - 430
6 - 510
7 - 450
8 - 550
9 - 295
10 - 552
11 - 468
12 - 290
13 - 360
14 - 185
15 - 405
16 - 213
17 - 433
18 - 432
----------
Total = 7411

quite a bit of variance from short to long.  par on the short would probably be around 55 and par on the longs should be around 63-64.  Signs are being ordered soon.

[The Bird Father]

No holes over 600'?  Par should be 54 on both settings.

[phisherman_77]

THE DESTROYER SPEAKS!!!

in all honesty, the city asked me to give "amateur" par figures in this case.  For a casual player, anything over 400 feet is probably going to play like a par 4.

[Schoen-hopper]

There are all kinds of different amateur levels.  I played a course in Miami, OK where I got some pretty easy 2's on what they were calling a par 5.

The PDGA uses a color system for the tees to designate different skill levels. 

Gold is for 1000 (975-1025) rated golfers.  Very few courses are at the gold level, even for par 54.  Par should be set for pro scores.

Blue is for 950 (925-975) rated.  For advanced players.  Most of the courses going in should be for this level if not intentionally decided otherwise.

White is for 900 (875-925) rated.
Red is for 850 (825-875) rated.

There is a template that used to be on the PDGA site, but I'm not sure it is now.  You punch in a hole distance and foliage density and it gives you the estimated scoring average on the hole.  It works pretty good for determining par for a certain skill level.

The best courses are designed with 2 sets of tees in mind.  One for the beginners and one for the advanced / pros.  Usually red & blue, or white & blue.  Then the hole pars can be the same for different skill levels, because they are throwing from different tee pads.

If you could get some rated players to play the course, I bet Chappy could figure out the course Scratch Scoring Average from the data on both long & short pin configs.  That would give you the 1000 rated "gold" par and you could figure out the blue or white or red par from there.  For this course, that would basically be 5 strokes per level higher than gold par.

If you only use one set of tees, I would recommend using the blue level for setting par.  If not, you will have average advanced players shooting double digits down and who knows what for pros. The course par would be meaningless and the course might come to feel obsolete.  Par, i.e. "errorless play" should be a challenge to meet.  Players should feel the drive to improve their game to meet par, not be playing par golf at day one.

I guess what strikes me most is the difference between the par for the 5500 distance vs. the 7100 distance.  That is a really good difference, but there is no way the course plays 8-9 strokes tougher unless there is a drastic difference in the OB & trees in play, etc.  If anyone could dig up the design documents, you could get some useful data to help set par.

[phisherman_77]

there are definitely no par 5's on this course.

i know that pro par is going to be different.  but the city asked me for "amateur" par or "casual" par.  I am simply doing what the city asked me to.  though pro/gold level players will inevitably be playing this course, the city is more concerned with new/casual players.

what i consider par out there is quite different than what "casual player par" will/should be. 

there is almost 2000 feet of difference between short and long.  just taking that difference and dividing it into 5 new holes for example, you get an extra 15 strokes to par minimum.  trust me, there are holes out here that are going to be VERY difficult to get deuces on.

[phisherman_77]

one more thing to add: since par is purely subjective anyway, what does it matter?  i'd rather have new/casual players out there pumped about their score relative to par and that is what the city wants too.

[will]

There are all kinds of different amateur levels.  I played a course in Miami, OK where I got some pretty easy 2's on what they were calling a par 5.

i've played that course.  flat and open but not bad for a small town between not much of anything.  redneck country.
the baskets liked to spit out your disc.

[Schoen-hopper]

I misread the distance for the long pins.  I was looking at 7100 vs. 7400.  Sounds like the long setup will be really challenging!

Let me say that I don't want to undermine your efforts.  Maybe I can be of some help supplying some info.

The par matters because this shows what skill level the course is designed for.  If the long pins are 7400 feet, this course is definitely not designed for beginners.  While these holes would make for some great par 4's and even 4.5's for them, they do not want to play this kind of golf.  This points to why 2 tee pads makes more sense for 2 different skills more than a huge change in length with pin locations.  

On the skill level, the blue level is amateur, not pro.  Many casuals play at the blue-white level.  Others play at levels too low to measure and their games are not at all predictable from week to week, so setting par to match them doesn't make much sense.  I know if par was 110 on a ball golf course, it would insult me more than make me feel better about my game.

That said, these par numbers that you gave are pretty close to blue levels.  I found the hole par document on the course designer's group in a read only file.  I don't know what happened to the information page on the PDGA site.  This is one of Chuck's files that has been thoroughly tested.  I have never seen this course, so I inputed "average" on the tree density scale for every hole.  This may be more than it actually is if this is similar to other KC courses.  They give a 1-9 scale that includes none, sparse, scattered, stands, average, woodsy, corridor, tighter, & pinball.  I'd say Wyco is somewhere between sparse & scattered and waterworks or swope might be between scattered & stands.  So average would be a little thicker.  If you use stands instead, the numbers come out to be about a stroke less on the short pins and almost 2 strokes less on the long pins.  Something to consider is that foliage may be different for the short pins & long pins.  Sometime longer pins can be more open when considering the whole fairway, sometimes tighter.

The numbers that came up for the Blue level of play (950 golf) and average foliage were 53.8 for the short pins & 61.3 for the long pins.  For the white level (900 golf) it is 59.2 & 68.0.  The numbers 55 & 63 are just one stroke above what the blue tee standard would be.  Which is probably a good thing.  So great job on your estimation!!

[phisherman_77]

one more thing to add: since par is purely subjective anyway, what does it matter?  i'd rather have new/casual players out there pumped about their score relative to par and that is what the city wants too.

...new/casual players?  "and that is what the city wants too.."

Geez...suddenly this course is tasting sour...

doug, you knew the city's aim for this course was primarily for the casual player.  steve casey has said it over and over.

alternate pads may be an option in the future, but for all those that just want to play ASAP, trust me, that's my goal too.

[DrRyan]

...new/casual players?  "and that is what the city wants too.."

Geez...suddenly this course is tasting sour...

I very rarely post anything on this board but, I felt compelled to after reading multiple critical posts in regards to this course.  I no longer live in the KC area and use it more as a resource to keep up with what is going on in the KC disc golf scene I sorely miss now living in Arizona.   

I would recommend those being critical(and I am not pointing fingers or naming names) take a look at mace man's website: http://www.maceman.com/

Mace man is talking about running tournaments but, is certainly applies to course coordinators doing great work on courses as well as those doing many hours of work trying to put new courses in the ground.  I see people here in AZ complaining about having to share a course with other people(multi use courses are common here in AZ) like Fountain Hills and Vista.  I used to b!tch about this course or that courses flaws instead of making a positive impact of getting my hands dirty(which I try to do now in AZ when time allows it).

Disc golfers need to get away from feeling that city parks departments, course designers and those running tournaments are there to serve their wants and needs.  Disc Golf is a great sport for people from the age they can walk to the age that they can no longer walk. 

There is a positive to the City of Lee's Summit wanting to gear this course towards new and casual players.  Bringing new players to the game is always a good thing.  In addition to that, the course can always be stretched out and baskets moved to allow players of all skill levels to enjoy the course. 

Again, I am not addressing this to anyone, more to everyone.  Patience and hard work will get a great golf course in Lee's Summit.  I will look forward to playing Legacy Park sometime when I am back and will gladly help on a work day if any happen while I am back as well.

Have a great day all, Aces and birdies!

[CD]

good point.

[jack]

Thanks Ryan,

We miss you.

House lost 6 games in a row and made the playoffs....I still can't figure that out......

This course has had its share of issues.  It has some great people working with the city on it, and we have a fine ambassador in Mr Palmer to help facilitate what the city wants.  Park changes, originally planned in 1997.....neighbors protesting.....

What we want to get away from is us doing the work for the city.  Volunteer hours are needed always in disc golf, but in areas that have more available manpower to support local efforts, (LSPR does for this), lets let them do it.  We currently have over 14 courses in the metropolitan area, this is a stark contrast to the start of the decade.

Is every course going to be world class, no, should it, no.  Enjoy the fact that you are in one if not the most spoiled part of the world for disc golf.  Many great people have helped to promote the sport to help with this insurgence.  Many of them are no longer playing, or live here, but set forth the groundwork for new people to step up and help.

With every new course it changes.  LSPR tried to do a few things that they felt would work, others talked with them to help encourage some minor changes, and I feel as though those are the communication lines that are important.  The best way to help, is to support what they are doing, get it in the ground, work with the changes and evolutions that will happen with any course, and let people play our sport.  If people don't like it, guess what, there is another course less than 20 minutes away, as a matter of fact there will be 3-5 courses within 20 minutes of it.

Our sport will have slug bugs, they get you going, and then you find a Chevy, then a caddy, then you see someone in a red Ferrari, and you follow them, and then you join the local club, then you join the PDGA, then you help run a worlds, then like an idiot you help with another worlds to help your city get even more disc golf........

Bottom line, if you are reading this, then you should let me know how you want to help with the Worlds.  Typing in this room is good for some things, but it really does nothing to help.  Actions speak louder than words, and for the most part we have many people that type a mean game, and show up infrequent to help with the remainder of the work.

Those of you helping, thanks as always, the rest of you think about what you truly can do to make this sport better.  It really starts with joining the club, if you are not member of it (Dr. Ryan you can be excused for leaving the Continent, and then choosing to return to a warmer climate!) then what are you really doing to help support the club that has been around since there was one course.  Swope, then Rosedale, and that’s all you could play until Olathe, and that’s all you could play until WaterWorks, and that’s all you could play until......somebody came to help build more and develop relationships with the P&R so that Disc Golf became a value added partner with the P&R, not the hippie sport that people sometimes feel it is.  

We are a great group of people, don't ruin it by thinking that the P&R are not "professional disc golf designers", they are not, but they can learn from our comments constructively and in the right fashion, not spiteful and harmful sayings with cheek and tongue comments.

Did I spew enough to kill this thread yet?

Meeting tonight for the once in a lifetime experience to help ensure KC's place in history.

How will you help it be that?

Jack

[DrRyan]

Jack, I am trying to make it back for '09 Worlds but not sure if I can shut down the clinic for a week yet.  If it is at all possible, I will be there.  Keep up the great work buddy.

Trust me, the weather is great this time of year, but I would trade the AZ weather and DG courses for KC's weather and DG courses any day!

[phisherman_77]

Did I spew enough to kill this thread yet?

I volunteered two full Saturday's, and some week day afternoon's to help get it put in, missing some tournaments I wanted to play in...and of course, I will admit, I was expecting to have played it by now.  I'm  a local resident and a paying taxpayer too and now have to wait till next Spring.  That is BS!!!

did you even read what you just typed? DrRyan's post was about this goofy sense of entitlement "some people" seem to have.  you compliment DrRyan on his post, and then you come back with the above statement?  guess what? i'm a lee's summit taxpayer too.  i want to be able to play this course, but i can't.  so you know what i did?  i went out to rosedale yesterday when i wanted to play.  easy as that.

also, just for posterity, where has it ever been said that the course isn't going to open until spring?  have you talked with steve?  i've never heard an iron clad date to put the baskets back in.  heck, they could do that tomorrow.  doubtful, but i guess it could happen.