Shawnee Mission Park Event

[John_Q_Public]

Is this going to be another one of those extremly long course's that are only enjoyed by those guys who can throw 400-500 foot? My wife and kids like to play disc golf, and sorry but I won't be taking them to Blue Valley Park for reasons that I won't state here.

[dclabe]

I keep reading these posts whining about how long KC's new courses are and how its just too much for my weeny arm and I'm going to have to walk to far and its really hot and there's no shade and........my advice to you is to get used to it, work on your distance and accuracy Disc Golf is evolving and experienced players are looking for more of a challenge then throwing an easy drive then putting out.  At the very least new courses need to be designed with a combination of par 3, 4 and 5 holes just so its not obsolete as soon as its developed.

[Kevin Montgomery]

This is okay to a point Dan. There should still be some newbie friendly courses around to get folks started. If I were just starting out in this sport I wouldn't want to play BV, Rosedale stretched out, etc.. all the time. There is always a need for a short, friendly, accessible course to get people interested and allow them to practice. We have the junior course at BV for that now but I feel that at least one of the major courses should be kept short in a rotation with the others that are set more difficult. If we want to expand the sport  we need to make sure it is accessible and not too intimidating for new players.

I agree that new players need to get used to the idea of the sport evolving but they are, after all, just getting started. I also agree that the sport needs to evolve to continue to challenge players at all skill levels. But calling these players whiners and dismissing their concerns is not conducive to making them feel welcome in our community of disc golfers.

If we could come up with a schedule of what course(s) will be set short and then publish it on the marquees and website that would go a long way towards making new players feel welcome. I will bring this up at the next EC meeting. Up to now I haven't seen much of a pattern to when courses are changed. It seems to be at the whim of the course coordinator.  and being a course coordinator myself that is how I approach it, right or wrong.

[Schoen-hopper]

Not this again.

I you want a pitch and putt, buy a couple of baskets and set them up in your back yard.  Or better yet, get with the city and build a nice short course in a public park.  That way I can bash it on the forum before it's even finished...

[Pope-Perry]

I hate to compair disc golf to ball golf, but.......

Golf as the average person knows it has been around for centries and  I'm sure they have figured out a few things. I mean how many times do you see a golfer pull out a 3 wood on thier second shot or third shot? Not many. On the average golf course thier is 2 or 3 holes that are made for the Tiger Woods, Vejay Sing, or Tom Daly. The average golfer who can hit the ball accuratly can still compete with them because every single hole isn't a mile long. Come on, how do you expect to accomindate the guy who has just picked up the game or better yet the guys who are getting up in thier years of age, and simply don't have the strength or stamina to throw a driver 400 foot each hole. So what your saying is that if you can't perform this well every time then go try bowling because we don't care about you. That a shame because I would think that you would want as many people playing this game as you can get, and you're not going to get them that way. Shanee Mission Park is a beautiful piece of land in an upper scale community that has a chance to draw people into this game that normally wouldn't have known about it because it isn't in Swope (which is a bad area) or Rosedale ( look at the pervious statement about Swope). I think you might want to re-think your thought process on this every hole is 800 foot. I suggest looking at ball golf as your example, after all they are no dummies and have been doing it a lot longer then the last 30 years. Yours truely Pope Perry

[Mike Penney]

So is disc golf about competetion all the freaking time or what? Isn't it something that families should be able to enjoy too? I would think so seeing how it's played in public parks. I have spent a considerable amount of time working on the Cliff Drive course and I know I won't even be able to walk it in 30 years let alone play it competively. It would be nice to see something go in the ground to look forward to playing when I'm old. So far that hasn't happened. Maybe never will with the way things are going. I think I'll just stick to Rosedale, at least there I feel like playing a second round. Maybe I'll check out Swope since it's going to be shorter for a moment in time.

[dclabe]

Just a few points for clarification.....

With my seniority I believe that its my inalienable right to call out the whiners..... I'm sure that some of the people posting would love the original 18 holes that Tom Ingle put in at Swope which had several 150 -200 ft holes with the longest maybe 300-325 ft.....we played that with the old Moonlighters. When he redid it about 1983 and made the shortest holes about 250 -300 ft and the longest 350-400 ft I didn't much like it but as disc technology has evolved it has gotten a lot easier. Like I said in my earlier post Disc Golf technology is evolving if its not challenging when the course is initially installed then it will be obsolete immediately.

Competitve courses are not designed for children, handicapped, or inactive people...... you should be prepared to walk, it should be physically challenging.  If you're playing with your family (which I do frequently) be prepared to make allowances ie play doubles or wolf versus singles, kids only throw drives and putts (even short courses are tough for kids under 10).

I don't want to discourage people from playing but at the same time I think players should have the attitude of looking forward to the challenge  versus the course is too hard.

[Dirk]

A lot of what a course becomes is dictated by the land available. Some holes just beg to be longer while others provide a unique challenge at shorter lengths. I forsee Shawnee Mission being a nice balance of both. It will not be the length of Blue Valley or Wyco but will contain its own unique holes that will challenge newer and experienced players.

I'd like to see a wide variety of shot available on this course. There will be tight fairways, wide open shots, hyser/anyhyser holes, several uphill and down hill shots. Some cross hill shots. Flat shots, and some woods. All in one course. I am working to achieve a well balanced course that players of all skill levels can enjoy. A good course has the ability to adapt to long and short  play.  Swope and Rosie are great examples of this, and I anticipate Shawnee Mission will follow suit. Come out this Saturday at 10 and play!

[Flip]

The problem of acommodating/challenging players of various levels on a single course has been around as long as golf, and so has the solution- multiple tee pads.  With all the discussion on the subject no one seems to mention this rather obvious solution.  Alternate pads do not need to be concrete(at first), but clearly marked and well planned.  I have seen this method used on some world class courses (Warwick, NJ)  and it can work.

-Sean

[Tom]

I'm gonna chime in on this topic. Personally, I don't care if a course is monster long, or a pitch and putt. I think what needs to happen when a new course is being designed is that the course par shoud be established early. When I play a course, I want to know what the designer thought the par should be, so I can play for par, or better. That's all we should want, a clear, obtainable, objective to strive for. If a course is designed to be a par 72, that's fine. There should be a balance of par 3s, 4s, and 5s. There should be some easy 3s and some hard 3s, and so forth. I do think the par for a course should  be attainable by a player that is possibly not a top pro. I would think if a course has a par 72, then somebody like Laron, or Eric McCabe, with a +-1000 rating should, on a good day be able to beat par by 5 to 7 strokes. Likewise, on the same course, a strong am player on a good day should be able to play it par, or maybe 1 to 2 under.
That's just my opinion.

[Schoen-hopper]

The duel tees is a great idea and was discussed on a similar thread in the Blue Valley section.

Comparing disc golf to ball golf, you can see that ball golf does have par 3's, 4's, & 5's.  Proffesional golfers are usually quite challenged to break par when playing from the pro tees.

Up until recently most all courses being designed had holes that were fairly wide open and averaging 275' in length.  A professional disc golfer could regularly shoot 10-15 under par in one round, making these "par 2" courses.  You can't really call a hole a par 2 because you have to ace it to get a birdie.  You can see how it is hard to establish a par for every hole as there are a lot of "in-betweeners". What you can do is see what the world class par is for the course.  Pro par for the course should be a little less than world class par and amateur par should be much lower.  Pick a player rating for each and you can calculate what the pro / am pars should be.

By making courses longer and tougher to include difficult par 3's, and true par 4's and 5's, you are indeed making a more defined par for each hole and a style of course that more closely resembles the masterful game of golf.

This game is one of the easiest sports in the world to become competitive at.  This is partly the nature of the game and partly because it's something that more people can physically achieve (we certainly can't all play professional football).  People seem to pick it up quick.  Why do we need to make an easy sport easier?

To use another comparison to ball golf... I've been playing ball golf for 15 years.  I've always admired the game and have worked on improving my own, but, I've never broke 90 and often shoot over 100.   I have many good shots, but I lack the consistency to shoot well.  Does that mean that I don't enjoy playing?  Does that mean that I wish all of the holes were 90 yards so that I'd have a chance?  Not at all.  This challenging game allows me to learn from the great players and to see the weaknesses that I can work on to become better.

Pitch and putt disc golf courses are everywhere.  By making the courses longer, I think it makes them more fair, not less.  If a hole is 550 feet with tricky routes to the pin, no-one is going to make 2.  You play the hole smart and well to get a good 3 or  decent 4.  It is your strategy off the tee along with a good upshot that makes for good scoring, not just a bomb drive that can get you in trouble.

[eupher61]

No one is saying you have to play the S&M course, or Blue Valley, or Cliff Drive, or Rosedale...or any other course.

That's part of the the joy of having so many great courses in this city--there's something for everyone.  I heartily agree with Kevin, though--some coordination needs to be made among the various CCs to have one or two courses essentially short at all times.  ESSENTIALLY, not completely.  Nothing wrong with Swope 13 long, or 14 or 15, Rosie 7, 8, 9, (I will draw the line on 17 if the other holes are medium or short.  Variety is good, even for the beginner.  But, we, as a club, need to be better about promoting the OTHER courses, besides Rosedale and Swope and WW, to get people playing them as well.  Having some of those promoted as short at specific times would help in numerous ways.

The root of this whole problem is lack of public realization that the KCFDC is really behind all these courses.  If it wasn't for the Club, the courses wouldn't be there at all, much less changed periodically.  We've done a lot of work ('we" being The Club, including all who are paying members)
to establish, maintain, and improve the KC courses, and it's a shame that 75% of the people out there playing don't know about us.  

This is getting into another thread...better taken onto Topica.  

steve

[jack]

Ok,

I like the topics here, but can we not criticize the parks as being "bad"?  Personally "bad" is a relative term, be smart, and aware in any public environemnt, the malls are "bad" places in some location, but people still shop.

On distance, if you feel that 400-500' shots are too long, then you are not thinking about strategy within golf.  Again I can not throw regularly 400', downhill off a cliff with a tailwind, maybe.......  What this course in particular does, BV, is create more of a need to emulate golf, it becomes placement, upshots, and thinking after each shot.  Quite a few of the fairways are designed to have risk rewards on each hole, it now makes my up game on the other courses better.  It has improved that part of my game, because that is the part that I without a big arm must work on.  It also improves your drives, because you can really throw the disc as far as you want on quite a few holes with no regard to distance, because, it aint going near the basket on my drive.

I tend to disagree with Penney in regards to Cliff Drive, 30 yrs from now we will be able to walk it, it will be better, and if people like Mike continue to help with the evolution of the area it will be better.  It takes all the people the get the courses playable, if you want to help, PLEASE HELP.  Too many people are club members, which is great, but don't do things to help out at their local course.  Kevin is right on with a rotation component, I like that idea a lot, we alternate courses on a regular basis might be a solid idea, posting here would be ok, but having an idea on each marquee where the courses should be set would be easier to read whilst at the course.

We have many courses in town, we have many types of players, we will never be able to make all players happy, but we need to ensure that all players enjoy the game, and try to get new people involved with the club.  It starts with you, if you are a member and you want something done, please step up and ask to help, or start doing something and ask how to get help.  We would all like to see more participation from everyone in our sport.  The same migs week in and week out doing the work get old, get stagnant, and lead to less change and better improvements.  

Please contact anyone on the board on how to better serve the disc golf community, we crave your attention, in fact we are starved for it.

Thanks,

Jack
913.485.5123

[jack]

"My wife and kids like to play disc golf, and sorry but I won't be taking them to Blue Valley Park for reasons that I won't state here."

Why not?  There is a beautiful brand new kids playground there that the Dante Hall Foundation and neighborhood association put in last year, disc golfers helped with that.  There is the SMALLEST course in town with the Jr. 9 on the land, it is one of the best places for views in the city.

You are only helping the bad environment by refusal to go there.  We are part of the solution, and that comment means that you don't care about the parks to me.  We have to make this a priority in the park, we must be present to foster change within the park.  If everyone took that stance we would not be looking at the park.

Take a phone, and if you see anything you think is wrong, CALL THE POLICE!  I call almost every time.  One week for prostitution going on, one week for a drunk belligerent woman stealing discs, one week for dead animals, one week for wreckless driving.  The thing is if we go the park and we make our presence known as people that do care, the police will then start to drive through the park on a regular basis and deter the bad element.

This is not like SM park where there are rangers to take care of the land, these parks are severly underfunded and part of the civic minded individual is take care of our land that is donated for use.  It takes time, effort and energy.  If you don't have these qualities, then you need to look inside yourself for what is important within your community.  We make a difference by being ourselves, and conscience individuals, if you choose not to be a part of that, it is your choice, but you are simply letting otheres dictate your community to you instead of being an active individual in making things better for all people to use.

Just my thoughts, I don't want it to sound demeaning, but that stance has been taken by many.  I am not trying to single you out, (Please dont think of this as an attack, but rather a stance that I have) but rather create an observation that we must not ignore these things in our community.  Our community is the greater metroplex of KC.  I work just as hard for JoCo and WyCo courses as I do for the KCMO courses, though I live in KCMO.  We as people must make a difference, ignoring great parks as items of concern only allows that bad influence to continue.

Thanks,

Jack

[Mike Penney]

The Shanee Mission course was fun to play yeasterday even though it was my D- game that I brought with me. I see some real potential there. I think that Dirk has a good design going on. It might have a little too much walking in bewteen holes, but other then that I thought over all it was great. It was a cross between Wyco and Olathe. I'm curious to see how this course developes over the next few years. There are some woods there that I would like to explore for holes as well. Over all a good course. Too bad more of you didn't come out to see it. You really missed out on a good time and a fun lay out. It didn't even rain until well, we (Dirk, Dan Cashen, and myself) picked up the baskets.