Author Topic: Welcome to Friendly Shawnee Mission...  (Read 4251 times)

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dickthediscparker

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Re: Welcome to Friendly Shawnee Mission...
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2009, 07:24:23 AM »
I think they should have a reason to search you.   Not just because you are in their park.   I would understand if they felt they saw something or had a reason.  But, Not just because your there.  I don't know if they do already but maybe they should put a sign up as you walk in.  "All people are subject to random searches" At least be honest about what you are about to do to someone.
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otter

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Re: Welcome to Friendly Shawnee Mission...
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2009, 08:37:43 AM »
Park Rangers - aka game wardens - are stewards of the land (& resources - plants, animals, minerals) they protect.  Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain PR's are given slightly greater powers re: searches - as it's their job to protect from poaching. 

Coupled with the current economy, I'm just guessing that bringing in a few more dollars due to incurred fines (speeding, alcohol possession, etc) will help ensure their occupational futures.  Sounds a bit Orwellian, don't it?

It's ALL Bush's fault.  :P 
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Spencer

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Re: Welcome to Friendly Shawnee Mission...
« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2009, 09:07:50 AM »
Everything I found online about park ranger authority is very clear that park rangers have the SAME authority as police officers within the parks they protect...it does not say that they have extra authority to search people without probable cause...so unless I am walking around with beer or a freaking shotgun and deer carcass I think they have no rights to harass me or anyone else. And if approached I will show the rangers as much respect as they show me, so if they are polite I will be polite, and if they are jerks then I will act like a jerk! I will still play out there because like Anthony said, with concrete pads and new placements this could be a pretty sweet course! Maybe if the ranger approaches me I will ask him if he wants to throw a couple holes, then maybe he would see how sweet it is and relax a bit :D

K.S.A. 19-2858 provides:

"The manager of the county board of park commissioners shall recommend to the county sheriff such number of employees as he deems necessary to become deputy sheriffs of the county, and the duly elected and qualified sheriff of the county shall deputize such employees as deputy sheriffs with full authority to enforce the rules and regulations of the county board of park commissioners as recommended to and by resolution adopted by the board of county commissioners: Provided, That the deputy sheriffs herein created shall have no enforcement authority outside the limits of the park and any recreational areas: Provided further, The deputy sheriffs herein created shall receive no compensation as such deputy sheriffs."

We find this statute controls the authority of the park rangers. They may have the same law enforcement training and be qualified as law enforcement officers, however, their authority is restricted to the park and recreational areas.

In conclusion, park rangers deputized by the county sheriff have full authority to enforce the laws on the park, but they have no enforcement authority outside the limits of the park and any recreational areas.


Very truly yours,


ROBERT T. STEPHAN
ATTORNEY GENERAL OF KANSAS


Nobuko K. Folmsbee
Assistant Attorney General

jack

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Re: Welcome to Friendly Shawnee Mission...
« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2009, 09:55:37 AM »
this is a different situation in that they are not rangers, but rather they are police officers of the park.  THe park is essentially its own town.  Now with that in mind, they can ask to search, and you can refuse.  They can ask anything they want it is a free country, but as a citizen you have rights as well, and they are not limited to the park.

So if they ask to look, and you allow them, they will probably move on.  If you say no, I do not consent to having you search my personal belongings then they can go forward with their actions as they see fit, realizing of course you now will have irritated them, the situation could go from bad to worst.

Bottom line, leave it in the car for starters, whatever you may fear the police finding on you at SM Park, or conceal it enough so that a quick glance will not show them any reason to continue the conversation.
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tedkeith

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Re: Welcome to Friendly Shawnee Mission...
« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2009, 09:57:36 AM »
After reading the other posts on the subject I guess it is more of a park thing than a golf thing as Jack stated. I understand and support the family park idea. There are plenty of other parks to play in if a person must partake.

I can't see the searches stopping as long as they keep finding the course littered with cans, and we all know the offenders are not likely on this board and aren't going to change. You would think that eventually the fines will cause them to play and trash other courses however.

I still disagree with the aggressive methods but hey, it IS Kansas. I was born and raised there and have received the guilty until proven innocent treatment many times. How does the current state slogan go... "As Bigoted as You Think" or something like that. Heck Wakarusa doesn't even happen at Wakarusa anymore because it's Kansas.


Timko

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Re: Welcome to Friendly Shawnee Mission...
« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2009, 10:06:25 AM »
I think they should have a reason to search you.   Not just because you are in their park.   I would understand if they felt they saw something or had a reason.  But, Not just because your there.  I don't know if they do already but maybe they should put a sign up as you walk in.  "All people are subject to random searches" At least be honest about what you are about to do to someone.

I was actually looking over the JoCo Park Regulations, and they mention nothing about search and seizure without cause in their published documents.  Dick, I totally agree with this.

Spencer

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Re: Welcome to Friendly Shawnee Mission...
« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2009, 10:43:21 AM »
HAHA that's awesome Dances With Yorkies-best post i've seen so far on here!  And in response to your post Ted, I should have saved all my time posting responses to this thread and just remembered that "It's Kansas!" I've lived here all 27 years of my life and have received the guilty treatment as well numerous times.  On a side not Wakarusa being moved sucks!!! I have gone 4 of 5 years and this year my buddies and I are going down to Mulberry Mountain, Arkansas to check out Wakarusa year #6 in it's new location.  Won't have to worry about KS cops down there, just Billy Bob and them ozark backwoods folks trying to make them hippies squeal like piggies!!!

Keizer

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Re: Welcome to Friendly Shawnee Mission...
« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2009, 11:06:05 AM »
LMAO @ Dances with Yorkies! :D

Timko

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Re: Welcome to Friendly Shawnee Mission...
« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2009, 11:57:46 AM »
HAHA that's awesome Dances With Yorkies-best post i've seen so far on here!  And in response to your post Ted, I should have saved all my time posting responses to this thread and just remembered that "It's Kansas!" I've lived here all 27 years of my life and have received the guilty treatment as well numerous times.  On a side not Wakarusa being moved sucks!!! I have gone 4 of 5 years and this year my buddies and I are going down to Mulberry Mountain, Arkansas to check out Wakarusa year #6 in it's new location.  Won't have to worry about KS cops down there, just Billy Bob and them ozark backwoods folks trying to make them hippies squeal like piggies!!!

Mulberry Mountain rocks.  I went there a few times during my tenure at the UofA, and it's a fantastic venue.

David E

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Re: Welcome to Friendly Shawnee Mission...
« Reply #39 on: April 23, 2009, 12:16:35 PM »
I still disagree with the aggressive methods but hey, it IS Kansas. .....

And all this time, I thought Missouri was the 'Show Me State"?
 ;D

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Billmon

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Re: Welcome to Friendly Shawnee Mission...
« Reply #40 on: April 23, 2009, 12:46:35 PM »
Hey guys, this is Lawyer Bill, giving out free legal advice.  It is a free country, where the police may not commit "unreasonable" searches, which first means they cannot search us without a warrant, but there are many exceptions to this initial rule.  One of the exceptions is with consent.  If you consent to a search, then the search is reasonable.  The police have the right to walk up to a citizen and ask them if they are violating the law by possessing illegal drugs or alcohol.  The police further have the right to ask to search your bag or person to prove you are not violating the law.  You then have the right to decide whether you wish to give consent.  I always advise my clients that when the police ask you to give up your constitutional right to be free from unreasonable searches, meaning warrantless searches, you should think of Nancy Reagan, and just say NO!  Rights are kinda like muscles, if you do not use them, you tend to lose them.  The police cannot legally punish you for exercising your rights by refusing to give consent, period.  Generally you will get better results if you are as polite and respectful as possible when saying, "Officer, I do not have any alcohol or anything else appropriate, but I do not give you consent to search my person or my property.  You have a nice day".  Then turn and throw, and ignore them.  If they persist, you could say that you have been advised by legal counsel that it is never a good idea to consent to a search, and so you are just following your attorney's advice.  If they want to argue about it, give them my name and number, and explain that your attorney can probably explain why he has advised you to decline said consent better than you can.  913-649-4700.

Of course, it seems clear that there is no "safe" place at SM to drink or smoke anything other than tobacco, due to the physical layout of the course.  So, probably best to ensure there is nothing to find, but still do not give consent even if you think there is nothing to find.  You can feel patriotic in the process, knowing that by refusing to consent to unreasonable searches, you are helping to protect all of our fundamental constitutional rights, which are always under assault by the authorities particularly post 9/11.

Kevin Montgomery

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Re: Welcome to Friendly Shawnee Mission...
« Reply #41 on: April 23, 2009, 01:17:51 PM »
Ahhh... the professional voice of reason. Thanks bill.
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Billmon

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Re: Welcome to Friendly Shawnee Mission...
« Reply #42 on: April 23, 2009, 01:23:49 PM »
I wrote the above post before finding the third page of prior posts, so I now must respond to Anthony's post:

I understand that you don't want your bag searched. Honestly I don't care. I feel like they have provided the park for me to play in, so they can choose to do what they want. I think we just have to remember to respect them even if they do ask to search our bags. Because I have a feeling the more disgruntle disc golfers they run into who complain about them searching it, or have a bad attitude towards a guy who is just doing his job, the more they will continue to search our bags. But hopefully if we show them respect and are polite to them, even if we don't agree with what they are doing, they will at least start to show us a little respect in return.

Not that I am attacking Anthony here or anything, just disagreeing with his ideas as gently as possible :)

No, the police cannot choose to do whatever they want, unless we consent to let them.  We do not have to trade away our rights to be free from warrantless searches in exchange for the right to use the public park that is supported by public taxes.  Respect for the police does not require surrendering our rights for which so much blood has been spilt over our nation's history to protect.  It seems you are suggesting that disc golfers should agree to surrender their rights so that the police will respect us by then searching bags less often?  Frankly, I think the police will continue to use tactics that work.  If everyone refused consent, then asking for consent would no longer work, and thus make it more likely for the police not to continue to request warrantless searches.

Seriously, the drafters of the constitution understood that just because the police dont wear redcoats, does not mean that the citizenry does not need protection from unreasonable searches by the police.  So, they gave us the right to be free from the random searches like those by the British that had pissed them off.  I really find it disheartening when people seem willing to give us fundamental rights in exchange for perceived safety or security, much less respect.

Sure, we do choose to give some of these rights when we travel, or when we enter a concert hall, but the park is not such a scenario.  (I am now stepping off the soapbox).

Spencer

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Re: Welcome to Friendly Shawnee Mission...
« Reply #43 on: April 23, 2009, 01:41:52 PM »
Good post Lawyer Bill-my thoughts exactly!!! And thanks for the free legal advice!!!

dickthediscparker

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Re: Welcome to Friendly Shawnee Mission...
« Reply #44 on: April 23, 2009, 01:51:23 PM »
I would like to know how this is going to affect the Wide Open or even the Worlds this year.  I understand full and well that our players can not drink or do anything illegal while playing their rounds.  My main concern is are they going to be harassing the players during the competition?  I know if I were in the middle of a round the LAST thing I would want to worry about is some cop bothering me.  Will there be an understanding with in the P&R that we are there to merely compete and Outside distractions would be discouraged?
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