Author Topic: A Blue Critique  (Read 6615 times)

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Campbell

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A Blue Critique
« on: February 28, 2006, 09:41:01 PM »
After reading other posts about this course, I can tell that there's some obvious controversy about BV.  And I know, as a designer, its impossible to please everyone. That being said.

Question: Is this course meant to be played as all par 3's. (Like traditional disc golf courses) Because I found myself struggling (and getting extremely frustrated) to get most of those holes in 3's and 4's and no way I could ever 2 any of them. If most of those holes were par 4's or 5's, I could deffinately see myself enjoying the course more... But presently, I just get pissed at myself for not being able to get a single 2. And rarely a 3.

In my opinion, BV is obviously a beautiful site for a disc golf course or two. This much everyone agrees on. It also lends itself nicely to large tournament venues. (i.e. space for vendors etc...) The tee pads are creative and original, with plenty of room to manuever.  The overall design is challenging but far from impossible. The biggest challenge I found was the overall distance of each hole (bare in mind when I played it, I was playing it as all par 3's). Which if the par for each hole was 4 or 5 then the distance is no longer an issue (at least not to me). There did seem to be a lot of hiking envolved, not only from tee pad to hole, but also from each hole to the following tee pad. Most courses the next tee pad is usually pretty close to the previous hole just played (with a few exceptions). I realize there was a lot of space to work with, but as a course design goes, was the space utilized effectively?

It seems that a lot of ego went into the design of this course and not much thought was given to the disc golf community as a whole. In other words, what percentage of disc golfers will enjoy playing this course on a regular basis? As nice as it is, will it ever put up the numbers Rosedale does? Probably not. Which disc golfers will make this their home course? Are the park/taxpayers receiving a good return on their investment (i.e. by increasing foot traffic and park usuage)? And does this course excite and encourage recreational or even intermediate players? As it stands, the course really only caters to the OPEN (and maybe a few advanced) players. How many OPEN players reside in the Jackson county area anyway? Enough to build a course with only them in mind? Or is it a case where the designers themselves happen to play somewhere in that arena.

I know when I've designed courses and hosted tournaments in the past, my first instinct was to try and cater to the OPEN players.  After careful research, consideration, and communications with other clubs players (both amateur and pro), I found that the common consensus was to cater to the amateur players. With extended optional pin placements and tees for pro's. This seems to be the "mold" that works well. Now that I have played BV, I have a better working understanding of that concept, and why it exists.

In conclusion, as it stands, I think BV excludes a large percentage of players. While the design meets the needs of those who designed it. It does not appear to meet the needs of the larger number of people who will actually use the park. Why wasn't this a HUGE red flag for the park board? Aren't their concerns based on the betterment of the park for the totality of public usage? Or at least toward a larger number of people than just the few OPEN players that reside in the county.

When I look across that park I see huge potential, as I'm sure everyone does. I think two courses like Albert Oakland Park in Columbia, could easily happen there. Yes, this would shrink some of those monster holes. But on the upside, BV would gain a whole other course, and extend tournament possibilities. Making it easier for tournament directors to hold large events in one area, instead of sending contestants treking across the city to alternate parks.

Don't get me wrong, I totally understand the reasoning behind why it was designed the way it was. But when you weigh the needs of the many againts the needs of the few, aren't we supposed to lean toward the needs of the masses?

Just a thought.

eupher61

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A Blue Critique
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2006, 10:21:48 PM »
Jack can and will, I'm sure, speak with better knowledge about this, but
BV is NOT intended as a par 54 by any means.  Take a look at the scorecard posted somewhere in this section--lots of 4s and 5s.  Last I remember, at the CoF, par was set at something like 66.  

The PDGA has a par standard which will need to be referred to, but I'm thinking it will easily be a 65.  That's purely a guess, I don't have hole lengths of the final layout, but given the lengths at the CoF, 65-66 seems reasonable.

Remember too,  the Krieger Plan is for a second course within the championship layout which will be a "normal" length.  How that's going to happen is not really clear to me, but I've been told it's a good one.

BV needs to stay just like it is!
steve
Ace?  I'll take a freakin' BIRDIE!
Steve Hoog, now in St Louis
Bluebird ROCKS!

Campbell

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A Blue Critique
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2006, 10:30:51 PM »
Awesome, well that certainly quells a lot of my apprehensions about the course. I'm glad to hear those facts. Thanks.

eupher61

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« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2006, 11:19:05 PM »
Don't assume those as factual; informed may be more accurate, since anything can change.  Jack?  Penney??
Ace?  I'll take a freakin' BIRDIE!
Steve Hoog, now in St Louis
Bluebird ROCKS!

Schoen-hopper

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« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2006, 11:35:49 PM »
Disc golf is very short on pro par 60+ courses.  Par 4 golf generally involved more strategy and therefore better golf.  This is just starting to catch on.  The fact that KC is on the forefront, installing the longest course in the world, will bring good attention to the course.

When disc golf was first started, pitch and putt courses were promoted.  We are just now realizing that there is so much more for designs to offer.  These type of courses aren't just good for pro player, but espescially for amateurs.  

Amateurs will learn from playing one of these courses that if they play carefree and out of control, there scores will blow up.  But if they play to the best landing areas, consider the wind, choose a good percentage upshot, avoid OB etc.......  that on that monster hole that they used to get an 8 on, they can now shoot the hole in 5 and sometimes 4.  In other words, this is a course you can develop your skills on, espescially the mental game.  

On the other hand, courses that are too long for an intermediate amateur player to 4 and too short for them to 2 are pretty much not suitable for their level.  I don't know if they would agree.  Look at golf though... 90% of golfer shoot over 100.  That's 30 over par.  They are usually paying $20+ to do this.

Just to be fair, BV is putting in amateur tees.  What more could we ask?  Now that Ted's Dread is leaving us, we'll need a solid pro par 60+ course to truly challenge our game.

Mike Penney

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« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2006, 08:58:27 AM »
The tee's are formed on the champoinship course and ready to be poured, a few already are. After those are done the Jr's 9 will be poured, then Jim has a plan to have Alt tee pads that will shorten the walk and time to play. IT IS NOT A PAR 54 COURSE!!, come on guys this is the longest disc golf course in the world, there is nothing like it any where!!!

 With that being said it is a great training ground for ALL skill levels! There are two course's already there, and soon there will be a third if you count the Alt pad configuration.
Mike Penney

superq

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A Blue Critique
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2006, 10:43:21 AM »
KC is a great place for a course of this magnitde, I played it last year at the COF. It is just incredible to walk out there and see the layout of the course.  As far as catering to the AM's, I am assuming you are refering to people that lack the 400+ distance or even consistant 350+ and if that is the case I have 2 replies:

1. Everyone in each division plays the same course.

2. KC has several other courses that the "whiners" can play, you want pitch and putt, go to the jr course, you want tight go to down under, you want back and forth up and down, go to Swope, you want long that doesnt humilate you as bad go to Rosedale, you want a great mix go to Olathe, or Cliff Drive. And if you want a good cardio workout and not so long go play Water Works or Wyco.

As a non KC resident it would be a shame to see BV cut down to anything less than what it is, a true world class gold course. :D

Props to KC for putting it in.

Schoen-hopper

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« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2006, 11:45:46 AM »
You say they are about to pour the Jr. 9 pads?

Any thought gone to a redesign for the Jr. course?  I found more than half of the holes very lacking.  They are not just short, but wide open.  They also don't make the best use of the elevation that the area offers.  I think a much better job could be done if all the expense for tee pads and all is being provided.

I know this course is supposed to be easy.  I've played many courses of this nature.  I still hold that the course is extreemly boring and could use some improvements.  I don't think anyone will play there as it is now, especially with the excellent course just across the road.

Mike Penney

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« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2006, 11:51:01 AM »
When was the last time you were out there? There have been dramatic changes to that area. I'm sure some tree's are in the budget as well. I personally like the Jr's 9. It doesn't take all day to play. Plus you can play the Jr's and the front 9 on the champ course and get 18 holes in.
Mike Penney

Schoen-hopper

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« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2006, 02:12:23 PM »
I was there last summer.  Have the holes been changed?  I understand if your ready to add tees and the pins are already there, a design modification wouldn't be very do-able.  The course just didn't seem to be up to KC calibur to me when I played it (not just because it was short).

Mike Penney

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« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2006, 03:09:42 PM »
Totally different area since last summer. They have moved in MAJOR mounds of earth! A feww tree's here and there and it will be completly different. :D
Mike Penney

Schoen-hopper

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« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2006, 11:45:45 AM »
Wow!  Sorry I doubted you guys.  Keep up the good work!

will

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« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2006, 01:08:27 PM »
the junior course was boring last summer.  i agree with that opinion.  the massive amounts of dirt brought in has helped change that.

the pour wont happen on the 9 hole for a while.  but it will happen.
the coldass weather has put progress back a bit.  pray for the temps to stay above freezing and no rain on the next couple of saturdays....



last summer and through this whole winter, Jim has been out there every saturday I was.  I believe he's been there EVERY saturday for the last several months and many times throughout the week.  and it's not just that he's there, he works on that land like it's his own.  he works his ass off in that park with no one around to thank him but the faegs.  
sorry to derail this post but a lot of people dont know Jim and wont ever meet him and if you did he wouldn't take any credit anyway.  so i wanted to take this chance to recongnize Jim.  what he's done in that park as well as waterworks is worth more than gold to kansas city disc golf.

Mike Penney

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« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2006, 03:06:44 PM »
Agreed and my hat's off to the kindness of Mr. Jim and ALL of his TIME and HARD WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :!:  :!:  :!:  :D
Mike Penney

Campbell

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A Blue Critique
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2006, 06:24:56 PM »
Thanks for all of the replies to this thread... Knowing what everyone has shared with me certainly changes my perception of the course. I'm just glad it's not a par 54... Now, I can stop beating myself up  :D