30th KCWO Think Tank

[Loomis]

I think an appropriate am prize would be... Discs.

[robm]

First post ever for me on KCFDC....

Maybe you're interested in a Newb's point of view, maybe not.  WO was the second only tournament I went to watch.  The first being 2011 Glass Blown Open.  I specifically went to watch the top players, Jenkins, Locastro, etc.  First, I was really surprised about how few spectators there were.  I was expecting 1000+, was there 300?, 400?  I would not believe there was 500 if you told me.  I'm not sure.  I make this point, because if you are looking for sponsors, 500 people really isn't that much, really.  Sponsorship is advertisement, need spectator #'s up.  However, I was totally stoked that I got a free Vibram putter (I use it almost every round I play), after another spectator told me about it.  Now well publicized.

As far as Fat Tire, Boulevard, etc.  I've brewed my own beer for over 20 years.  Blvd is good beer.  However, Tall Grass is also VERY GOOD BEER.  I think Jeff (main brewer at TG), would be interested in events such as this.

Cost?  I've only played KS Sunflower Games, Topeka Ace Race so far.  Cost vs. benefit is HUGE for me as a family of 4.  I signed up today for the Rosedale Am Champ because cost was below $35 and I new exactly what I was going to get as a player's pack.  Ideally, I want more back than what I paid (discs, shirts, etc.).  I also want more back of useful stuff than what I paid.  Vouchers are totally cool.  Give me a choice of a disc or two, or $X towards disc (because I actually like DX plastic) and I would be really happy.  I want to play WO next year, but if cost is over $65 (besides PDGA membership), probably won't happen.

[HaterAde]

Thanks for clarifying, Aaron. I don't know the circumstances as to why things didn't work out right at the event you played, but knowing Jack, it probably wasn't due to lack of effort.

[aarong]

I don't want to come off as bitter because I really don't care now about that past tourney. Everyone has different reasons for playing and not playing certain tourneys and you can't make everyone happy at every tourney. I prefer non trophy tourneys.

[John Chapman]

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I don't want to come off as bitter because I really don't care now about that past tourney. Everyone has different reasons for playing and not playing certain tourneys and you can't make everyone happy at every tourney. I prefer non trophy tourneys.

It's really instructive to express these sorts of things directly to the TD ASAP after the event. As Jack will tell you, the only way to offend Jack is to think that you CAN offend Jack, so any feedback is crucial, and it helps improves future events. Also, TDs do sometimes make mistakes and forget things, so it's possible Jack has no idea that a trophy disc was due you, and had he known, he would have dealt with it immediately. Aaron, I think most your criticisms are valid, but as far as the "crappy" payout, usually ams are paid back over 100% at a Jack Lowe event, but he has strived to keep Am entry fees lower at his events in the recent past, so that may or may not account for the apparent reduction in prizes. (And I'm not lumping the 2011 KCWO into this discussion, since it was trophy-only.) I'd like to know what the event you're complaining about is, so I can put it in the proper context. If you're comparing the am payout at the Mighty Mo to the GLO, that's not a fair comparison. If you're comparing it to a C-Tier with the same entry fees, then that WOULD be a fair comaprison.

As far as trophy-only goes, I don't think it's the reason for the low-turnout. I think the main reason is only getting to play 3 rounds. Dan Cashen tried this once back around 2006 or 2007, and the Am field suffered because of it. When you see the pros geting to play 4 or 5 rounds, and you only get to play 3, you feel a little bit jilted. That being said, I've always thought that the best combo of prizes was not trophy-only or prizes only (no players pack), but some sort of combo of both. There's nothing like finishing 20th out 50 in an amateur field and getting to say "I 'cashed' ". The fact that that prize is likely one DX plastic Eagle is not the point. It's more of a self-sense of accomplishment. We aren't giving trophies out that deep, I wouldn't think, so I think you lose some of that feeling in trophy-only. However, getting a cool player pack with cool stuff is very nice as well. I think maybe we need to brainstorm ideas to make the player pack more enticing for ams...what kind of stuff do you think is cool that you will actually use?

[ajinks]

At a BIG event and if there are BIG pros there, I would rather play one less round and watch the pro's play their final round or final 9.  I was more than bummed at the 28th WO when we weren't going to get to watch the Pro's play at all after driving several hours to play in the tourney.  I also think there should be a clear divide between AM & Pro divisions with the # of rounds played, to provide more incentive to play up.  Don't try and man-up an AM format and then act all tough because you completed the 4th round better than lesser Am's.  That's just being silly, you're an AM, you ain't tough...

As for the players pack, I would think a minimum includes a disc and shirt or something along those lines.  If ya gotta skim from the entry fee to make that happen, that's cool.  But don't take $15 out of my entry fee for a disc that costs $6.  The prices of tourney stamped discs are available to everyone so that's just dumb and shady to me.  If you can do more in the players pack, great, but don't do it at the expense of an average payout. 

[aarong]

09 city of fountains. I payed 23$ got a nice shirt for the players pack. I think there were 6 or 7 in am1. I won, got 8 kckash and no trophy. I'm comparing that to 2010 kalamazoo championship. I payed 25$ including ace fund and got a nice disc. Although I didn't win, Larry Labond paid first place 60 and second place 40 and only 5 played. I'm sure there is a whole bunch of factors thrown in there to set apart TD's that I don't know, so that's why I don't really care, because there is probably a bigger picture that I'm missing. I'll definitely be coming back for the wide open when I don't play usadgc or if they're on different weekends. I wish I could afford to play wide open pro field, but donating 160$ to feldberg and nikko just doesn't sound that fun or reasonable to me after travel money and junk. And like I said I'm sure there are different factors that seperate TD's and maybe those 2 tourneys aren't the best to compare each other to but that's the kind of stuff that stands out to players over time. And of course my experience is way worse than others I'm sure. Cause I bet at the wide open the trophy's are already made and ordered and sitting at the scorers table and you don't have to wait on em. 

[Tom]

Trophys sit around and gather dust and get in the way, and can even be dangerous. I'd rather be able to pick out merchandise from a large selection at the tourney, or get a voucher that you can redeem on-line or at a Disc Golf retail store like Disc Golf World.

If it's tophy only, I'd rather pay even less and not get a players pack at all, especially if it's pre-defined.

I think the 30th should start on Friday for everyone. Two rounds Friday, two rounds Saturday, and one round Sunday morning, with a final nine for the top pro men and women Sunday early afternoon.

I like the idea of having food and drink (player's party) at one of the courses immediately after the finish of Friday's rounds. That way, any leftover keg action could be offered after Saturday's round. There could be a distance competition and maybe a putting contest at the players party too.

I like the idea of playing the same course twice on Friday, and another course twice on Saturday, and maybe the course you played Friday being your Sunday morning round location.

I think Blue Valley is the best location in town for tournament central and the final nine too. Swope isn't bad either. Rosey works too, and is perhaps more central to the metro.

[jamison99]

Having an Advanced Final 9 as well would be good.  Alot of other tourneys do this, and it gives you a chance to showcase some up and coming talent. 

[dickthediscparker]

Having an Advanced Final 9 as well would be good.  Alot of other tourneys do this, and it gives you a chance to showcase some up and coming talent. 

lol

[Cooper]

09 city of fountains. I payed 23$ got a nice shirt for the players pack. I think there were 6 or 7 in am1. I won, got 8 kckash and no trophy. I'm comparing that to 2010 kalamazoo championship. I payed 25$ including ace fund and got a nice disc. Although I didn't win, Larry Labond paid first place 60 and second place 40 and only 5 played. I'm sure there is a whole bunch of factors thrown in there to set apart TD's that I don't know, so that's why I don't really care, because there is probably a bigger picture that I'm missing. I'll definitely be coming back for the wide open when I don't play usadgc or if they're on different weekends. I wish I could afford to play wide open pro field, but donating 160$ to feldberg and nikko just doesn't sound that fun or reasonable to me after travel money and junk. And like I said I'm sure there are different factors that seperate TD's and maybe those 2 tourneys aren't the best to compare each other to but that's the kind of stuff that stands out to players over time. And of course my experience is way worse than others I'm sure. Cause I bet at the wide open the trophy's are already made and ordered and sitting at the scorers table and you don't have to wait on em.

In comparison, I won Loomis's Olathe event the next day (granted it was a larger field, 15 or so) but I cashed over $100 in merch.

[John Chapman]

09 city of fountains. I payed 23$ got a nice shirt for the players pack. I think there were 6 or 7 in am1. I won, got 8 kckash and no trophy. I'm comparing that to 2010 kalamazoo championship. I payed 25$ including ace fund and got a nice disc. Although I didn't win, Larry Labond paid first place 60 and second place 40 and only 5 played. I'm sure there is a whole bunch of factors thrown in there to set apart TD's that I don't know, so that's why I don't really care, because there is probably a bigger picture that I'm missing. I'll definitely be coming back for the wide open when I don't play usadgc or if they're on different weekends. I wish I could afford to play wide open pro field, but donating 160$ to feldberg and nikko just doesn't sound that fun or reasonable to me after travel money and junk. And like I said I'm sure there are different factors that seperate TD's and maybe those 2 tourneys aren't the best to compare each other to but that's the kind of stuff that stands out to players over time. And of course my experience is way worse than others I'm sure. Cause I bet at the wide open the trophy's are already made and ordered and sitting at the scorers table and you don't have to wait on em.

Again, this something you need to tell Jack (and I'm sure he'll read this), but that doesn't sound right to me on the surface. I'm almost sure a mistake was made there, but I could be wrong.

[John Chapman]

At a BIG event and if there are BIG pros there, I would rather play one less round and watch the pro's play their final round or final 9.  I was more than bummed at the 28th WO when we weren't going to get to watch the Pro's play at all after driving several hours to play in the tourney.  I also think there should be a clear divide between AM & Pro divisions with the # of rounds played, to provide more incentive to play up.  Don't try and man-up an AM format and then act all tough because you completed the 4th round better than lesser Am's.  That's just being silly, you're an AM, you ain't tough...

As for the players pack, I would think a minimum includes a disc and shirt or something along those lines.  If ya gotta skim from the entry fee to make that happen, that's cool.  But don't take $15 out of my entry fee for a disc that costs $6.  The prices of tourney stamped discs are available to everyone so that's just dumb and shady to me.  If you can do more in the players pack, great, but don't do it at the expense of an average payout.

There are many people who share your views, but the actual numbers play out that when Ams only get to play 3 rounds in the Wide Open, they don't show up as much for the event. There are ways to get out to see the pros (early Sunday getaway round, with 5 rounds total in a 3-day event), that don't involve cutting the number of rounds. Not sure about what you by "manning up", but it's always appropriate for players to play in a division that suits their relative skill level. I can (and have) played Open in several tourneys, including the Wide Open and Worlds over the years. I enjoyed the experience but pretty much got my clock cleaned every time, and that was 20 years ago when I could throw pretty well (time and back surgery have reduced into a weenie arm that is also a former great putter). The point is, people should play in whatever division fits their skill level and makes the experience more fun for them. I have played Advanced or Intermediate instead of Advanced Masters if I liked the course setup for those divisions better at an event.

Keep those ideas coming....there's a lot of good ones.

As far as discs go, retail price is always always fair value for discs in the player package. If you'd pay $15 for a disc at DGW at regular price, valuing it at $15 for a players package is very fair.

[Rick Rothstein]

Some good ideas out here and some others too. Through the years, we’ve had professional presentations and have sought significant sponsorship from some of the companies in town that have "deep pockets."  These companies did not get those pockets deepened by making bad investments. The bottom line is that disc golf in general, and the KCWO in particular, have very little to offer these companies in terms of exposure. Sponsors want to either sell their products or have as many eyes on their logos or ads as possible. 300 tournament players is not enough. Getting 1000 spectators out for a final round is probably not enough either, but it’s a beginning.
 
As no one has really scored a home run asking for $5000 or $10000, Wide Opens have gone for smaller sponsors, as it is easier to get $100 or $300 from more people and businesses than it is to get a big wad of cash from a large corporation. We have occasionally scored sponsors in the $500 to $1000 range, but these have not been common

Also, we have had relationships that produced beer and other products from both Boulevard, New Belgium, and others. Jack and I had cordial discussions with the sponsorship director at Boulevard for Worlds, but it's not their corporate policy to sponsor events with money. Their perceptive sponsorship guy did point out that he thought that it was pretty natural for players in alternate sports to be attracted to craft (can we call them alternative) beers.

Here’s a rough proposal that has not been vetted by anyone, nor have I done a budget or created time lines. Time lines are critical for the success of a multiple-course event. Having a final 9 can be a great experience, buy it really needs to start within 10-15 minutes of the posted time. (Digression on: Speaking of final nines, I'll never forget when Stokely aced #2 short at Swope and took the lead over Climo, only to squander it and losing in a 3-hole playoff. The atmosphere following that ace was electric. Another final 9 highlight was in 2003 when Ruth Steele was the only person in the group of 4 open and 3 women to park Swope #3 (by parking lot) that had been tightened considerably with OB/gallery rope on both sides of the fairway. End of digression.) Of course, bad weather can screw everything up. As mentioned, no numbers have been run yet, but I think if we could raise at least $12K, we could add some good cash to the pros, have a kick-ass party, provide a few more amenities, and produce a tournament to remember. 

This proposal has all pros and all advanced divisions playing 3 days (at least 4 rounds) and other am divisions playing 3 rounds in two days. It includes a final 9 for the top 4 pro men and top 3 pro women playing in one group. We’d want to build on what we had last year with more disc vendors, food and beverage vendors, music and more activities to induce more spectators to attend.

Net Entry Fees and Targeted Fields
Men’s Open Division – Pool A: $110, 72 players 
Other Pro Divisions – Pool B: $75, 72 players (12 women, 36 masters, 16 gm, 8 sgm)
Advanced Division Pool C: $75 (play for prizes, small players package) (36 men, 8 women, 24 masters, 4 gm)
Intermediate/Rec/Novice Pool C: $50 (trophy only, extensive players package)

Courses: Blue Valley (BV), Swope Gold (SG), Rosedale (R), Water Works (W), Cliff Drive (C)

Rounds
Pros play 4 rounds and showcase final 9 featuring 4 men and 3 women in 3 days

Advanced plays 4 (or 5) rounds in three days

Other ams play 3 round in two days

Schedule
Friday
Pool A Rd 1: R
Pool A Rd 2: W
Pool B Rd 1: BV (staggered start)
Pool C Rd 1: W
Pool C Rd 2: R

Saturday
Pool A Rd 3: BV (staggered start)
Pool B Rd 2: SG (shotgun start in morning)
Pool B Rd 3: RD
Pool C Rd 3: SG  (shotgun start after pool B is done) (Could play CD in the morning for 5 rounds)
Pool D Rd 1: R
Pool D Rd 2: W

Saturday Night Dinner Party Including Introduction of Past Champions, KCWO TDS, and key staffers.
Needed: a $3000 dinner sponsor

Sunday:
Pool A Rd 4: SG (shotgun start)
Pool B Rd 4: W
Pool C: BV (shotgun start--might be early)
Pool D: C (shotgun start)
Final 9: top 4 open and top 3 women playing together at Swope.

[aarong]

Like I said I'm not too worried about it. I'm happy to have a 1 by my name for that tourney.