Author Topic: There was USDGC bad, and now there's this  (Read 3162 times)

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AWalters

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Re: There was USDGC bad, and now there's this
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2011, 08:51:00 PM »
SAVAGESAM: Inline skating is based off of skateboarding and is a very popular sport to millions. Skateboarding was a invention based off of surfing. so almost every great sport has been based off another sport. seeing as big as disc golf is getting i wouldnt be surprised if it made it big.

being a former smoker i would agree with my dad on this one. No sport will stop growin based on if people smoke or not. i would rather see drug testing at pdga events first before i see a ban on something that is legal.

The only time a sport should ban something that is legal is when the sport is held in a enclosed area. Seeing as disc golf is out in the open there should be no ban. 

Dale W

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Re: There was USDGC bad, and now there's this
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2011, 09:10:06 PM »
I can't see this sport ever being a "big time" sport commercially. It has nothing to do with smoking or not smoking. Shirts or shirtless. In fact those 2 things might differenciate this sport from it's larger more commercially succesful brethen "ball golf". Most folks think that if we act like ball golfers and dress like ball golfers the sport might take off. So what's the difference from the former other than the fact that we are chucking a piece of plastic. NOTHING!!!! For instance, X Game sports have become popular for the most part because they are doing something different not because they mimic another sport. In fact, I doubt the X Games would have many contestants if there were drug testing before events. I don't think their fans think they go "smokeless" and could care less if they wear a shirt. What we're doing is akin to taking the game of basketball and playing with ping pong balls and smaller basket. Yes it might be fun and it might not be easy but will it ever be as succesful as the origional? Don't get me wrong. I love this sport and enjoy seeing it grow but commercial success? I'm very sceptical.

I think you have actually hit the nail on the head, Sam.  While "golf" is the more pristine (or aristocratic) of the two, disc golf would be more closely related to the X games as more of a "fringe" / casual sport.  They should embrace that distinction instead of trying to be a spitting image of the orginal.  The X game sports receive much attention and sponsorship, just not at the same level as "mainstream" sports.

A majority of sports are variations of other sports....sometimes the original is more popular (soccer vs polo, bowling vs curling and shuffleboard for example), sometimes the knockoff is bigger (baseball vs cricket, football vs rugby).  Even modern racing (NASCAR a clone of Indy racing, etc) is a knockoff of the chariot races of ancient Rome.  The only sport I can think of that isnt a clone or have a clone off hand is basketball...but then again it is "only" just over a hundred years old.  Im sure there are others, but I cant think of them at the moment.
Sorry to hear about your luck!!!   :P

savagesam

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Re: There was USDGC bad, and now there's this
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2011, 09:16:18 PM »
Well maybe we should change the name of the sport. After all they don't call Skateboarding "Concrete Surfing". I hope that I'm wrong. I'd like to see this sport become more commercially viable to those that excell. In the mean time as they say, I won't be quitting my day job. 
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gleauzinier

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Re: There was USDGC bad, and now there's this
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2011, 08:58:15 AM »
as a nonsmoker it gets tedious somtimes trying to stay upwind from the smoke, as a tree hugger and self appointed course custodian (meaning whichever course I'm walking) it's REALLY ANNOYING to see how many of you smokers toss your butts in front of the benches and tees. I'm assuming it's smokers that can't find a way to field strip their leftovers and toss the filters in a trash receptacle or pack them out.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 09:01:19 AM by gleauzinier »
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Loomis

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Re: There was USDGC bad, and now there's this
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2011, 09:37:01 AM »
Mr. Dale,
It would seem that your retort is based on a loftier set of morals than the discussion requires. This isn't an infringement on your rights. No one says you have to QUIT smoking for good. They just don't want you to smoke at their events. Just like you can't smoke in my house when you come over. My house, my rules. Don't like it? Don't come over. Period. You want to smoke. Good for you. Wanna play disc golf? Okay. Wanna play PDGA events, then you can't smoke. Plain and simple. If you think that losing smokers is going to cut into the bottom line to such a degree that the PDGA will consider their stance - you're as wrong and wrong gets. Boycott. Go ahead. Do it. Choose smoking over competitive disc golf. Go ahead. No one loses anything but you. But in the final analysis, no one gives a sh1t if you smoke or not. They just don't want you to do it at a PDGA event. There are larger issues involved other than your inability to quit. That's the only issue in your argument; You don't want to quit.

Smoking, unlike chewing tobacco, is a "sightly" image. Something not easily disguised from viewers. And when I mean viewers, I mean kids. Kids with parents. Those parents who don't like their kids seeing people smoke. Especially if those people are athletes. Athlete is a term used loosely here, but it still stands in the eyes of the uninformed parent. Parents who react quickly to things that they deem ugly for their kids and work overtime to rid their lives of it. And those kids... Are what businesses want. Cause in marketing, that's the long term money. Kids are what make things cool. Cool equals word of mouth. Word of mouth equals interest. Interest equals money. Money equals growth. Growth equals leverage. Leverage equals respect. A respect you will LOSE if you can't get the image working.

So it all starts with image. An athlete with a nice shirt, or uniform. An athlete with talent. A psuedo hero kids will admire enough to emulate. And if the athlete is smoking, the parents are going to be nervous. And that leaves us with a sport mired in obscurity because someone couldn't go a few hours without a cigarette. A smoker who feels he has "rights" with are being infringed upon, which, by the way, is the lamest line of sh1t of all time.

Disc golf needs a respectful image that can be sold to John Q Public. It may be uneasy and uncomfortable for those of us slobs in the sport who don't want to do it, but it has to be done. If you aren't willing to make the sacrifice, then you're in my way. And you're in the way of the sport.

Loomis

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Re: There was USDGC bad, and now there's this
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2011, 12:27:37 PM »
P.S. X games sports are dominated by youthful competitors in a high energy environment. This is golf, and not unlike it's cousin of a hundred names, it has less energy, a wide range of competitors from different age brackets. Thus, we can't hope to see the same reaction to disc golf that was seen in the "X games." (maybe if a better video game comes out about disc golf...) However, unlike our distant cousin, we don't have the history, the pedigree, or the money behind our sport (I will include tennis and bowling into this as well). So as our sport grows, the identity of it had better be solid or it will find itself in the dust bin of fringe sports who couldn't get their sh1t together. It's all about the presentation.


savagesam

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Re: There was USDGC bad, and now there's this
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2011, 01:40:52 PM »
Well this all makes for an interesting debate. I'm sure the image that John McEnroe projected on TV at times appalled most traditional Tennis folk. Yet it was good for ratings and I doubt tennis has been as popular (on the tube) since. You need only to look at today's TV lineup to realize that brash and maybe obnoxious sell. While I don't watch it, Reality TV is anchored on our channels. Now I'm not saying that there should not be behavior standards. In fact I think there should. I grew up in the 60's and early 70's when spiking the ball, touchdown dances, trashing talking...etc were not that prevalent. The whole idea of drawing attention to one's self during a game is very foreign to me. It was the phase "taking the game to the next level" that got my attention and I'm focusing more on that than if folks can smoke on the course. I guess when I hear that phrase I'm thinking "MONEY". I'm just not sure "marketing wise" what is being done to differenciate this sport from any other. "Just like Golf but Different" might not get it done.
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Ash

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Re: There was USDGC bad, and now there's this
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2011, 02:00:11 PM »
The idea of changing this game from what it is now--that has obviously attracted many as the popularity is on a steady rise--to what a few people want it to be in order for them to make a living from it is a joke. I agree with those that stated they don't really see this ever becoming a spectator sport that makes lots of money. If it were to become that it would ruin disc golf as we know it. Courses would become expensive to play just like ball golf, thus ruining the factor that has caused disc golf to boom, it is cheap. Thinking that making people not smoke or wearing collared shirts is going to make it more marketable is laughable. I'm a disc golf player and every time I have tried to watch disc golf events on the internet or in person I get bored and I go play disc golf. It is a game for the players, not for spectators and corporations.


being a former smoker i would agree with my dad on this one. No sport will stop growin based on if people smoke or not. i would rather see drug testing at pdga events first before i see a ban on something that is legal.

The only time a sport should ban something that is legal is when the sport is held in a enclosed area. Seeing as disc golf is out in the open there should be no ban. 

Drug testing makes even less sense than banning cigarettes. Illegal substances are already banned during competition, what people put in their body on their own time is NOBODY's business, especially not the PDGA's.
Ash Lawrence
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Loomis

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Re: There was USDGC bad, and now there's this
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2011, 02:31:44 PM »
The discussion over the old hard-line approach to what disc golf is and could be is a fantasy conversation. Disc golf will continue to evolve and those who want to see it through a nostalgic lens will either come along, or be left behind. Disc golf already has pay to play courses. It already has exclusive courses. The fact that you can see it on the internet is part of the evolution. It's too early to judge what the sport will look like, but we know where you stand Ash. And you can create any world you want out of disc golf, as long as don't interfere with others and their work with the sport. You're either working to grow the sport, or working to destroy it. Though you may not know which you are doing at the time.

As far as smoking is concerned, no professional sport of any kind (great or small) allows smoking. Smoking had its time, and that time has passed. Each year there are fewer and fewer smokers. Fewer and fewer places to smoke. The support for smoking is almost exclusively made up of smokers. As those numbers dwindle, so too will the support. Then we can discuss deeper issue involving the sport and not something as trivial as a personal vice.

If you could quit smoking, would you?

Loomis

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Re: There was USDGC bad, and now there's this
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2011, 02:37:08 PM »
P.S. The sport is on TV in Charlotte, North Carolina all day long. It is also aired live on TV in Europe and Asia. Though not popular in Football-mad America, it does have legs. The spectator side of the sport grows with each event. I can see where you don't think it will ever be a spectator sport, but they said the same thing of poker, the x games, baseball, tennis (which is huge by the way), golf (which is three times as large as tennis), bowling, billiards and darts. All of which have found audiences both live and on television. The key, as I have said many times, is in the presentation. Conversely -- You can't smoke during professional poker, billiards or dart tournaments. Odd, huh?

jack

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Re: There was USDGC bad, and now there's this
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2011, 02:38:47 PM »
When did it become a rule that people had to wear shirts during PDGA events? Was this measure met with similar resistance by those players who only like to play shirtless?

Yes....I wore a shirt and Tie during the Pro/Am Worlds in Des Moines in 2004 in direct revolt of the ruling.....which looks sillier.....a guy throwing a disc in a tye-dye shirt, or me throwing discs out of my briefcase instead of a disc golf bag.......

Somethings need to be addressed by the PDGA, this was not, and should not be one of them.  On the note though so we are clear, this ruling is only for MAJORS, not any other events, even the NT can allow smoking, and the MAJOR can have a hidden smoke area so they cave, but don't want to eliminate altogether.  This waffling stance is yet again an example of issues that really don't require the attention deserved.......Chappy hit it on the head with the IN GOD WE TRUST debates last week.  Glad that was settled......
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jack

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Re: There was USDGC bad, and now there's this
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2011, 02:49:25 PM »
If you could quit smoking, would you?


This was on NPR today, and (local KCUR) http://www.kcur.org/centralstandard.html was asjed this question by his interviewie today as the question came of character, and when push came to shove, Jabulani Leffall said, he would rather stay a smoker.....even though his guest stated that he had never met a smoker who didn't want to quit......it's not illegal is the issue here, its not the PDGA's park, we PAY the pdga for events, and the rules they bring for consistency, but this is not the issue nor the badge that needs to be carried currently.  So many other items need the attention of the PDGA, like internal web development of a site that can handle the traffic......if no one can follow events from the PDGA, why worry about the image?
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otter

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Re: There was USDGC bad, and now there's this
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2011, 04:00:19 PM »
Has anyone ever approached a tobacco cartel as a possible sponsor?  :-X
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AWalters

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Re: There was USDGC bad, and now there's this
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2011, 04:21:23 PM »
Smoking, unlike chewing tobacco, is a "sightly" image. Something not easily disguised from viewers. And when I mean viewers, I mean kids. Kids with parents. Those parents who don't like their kids seeing people smoke. Especially if those people are athletes. Athlete is a term used loosely here, but it still stands in the eyes of the uninformed parent. Parents who react quickly to things that they deem ugly for their kids and work overtime to rid their lives of it. And those kids... Are what businesses want. Cause in marketing, that's the long term money. Kids are what make things cool. Cool equals word of mouth. Word of mouth equals interest. Interest equals money. Money equals growth. Growth equals leverage. Leverage equals respect. A respect you will LOSE if you can't get the image working.

Kids are exposed to smoking weather parents like it or not. If parents were so worried about there kid getting exposed to smoking they wouldnt let them go outside or go to school. I personally have never heard of a parent saying NO u cant watch this because of one guys personal choice to smoke. It is hard during a pdga event that could last 3-4 hours per round not to smoke.

Loomis I get were ur coming from the 1% chance of this sport getting bigger because of banning smoking. But as a college student most of my friends smoke and im trying to get more people into disc golf. Do u really think they will ever play in any pdga events if there is a ban on smoking? No they wont cause i wouldnt i wouldnt even consider playin if i knew it because it could never be more then a recreational game for me.

Loomis

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Re: There was USDGC bad, and now there's this
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2011, 05:06:25 PM »
A lot of athletes smoke, but they don't do it when they know the "image" is at stake.

And yes, college students who want to compete, will put the cigarettes down if they want to play. Just like they do for baseball, football, and all other sports.

There are two sides of disc golf; The leisure side and the competitive side. We are talking about the competitive side. Leisure golf will always be ripe with smoking, drinking, etc. Just as other sports have a leisure side with the same attitude. However, professional sporting organizations, who mean to see the growth of the sport, have to create standards by which all athletes will follow. These standards are meant to both regulate the fairness of play, such as no taking steroids, equipment standards, etc. And to preserve the image of the game to the outside world - football, basketball and baseball players all coming to the stadiums in dress clothes, and... no smoking during the event. The NFL, NBA and MLB do not tell regulate smoking by their players when they are not "representing" the team, e.g. on their own time, eating dinner at a restaurant, for example. But if the event is sponsored by the organization, there is no smoking by the player, etc.

Again, this isn't a "rights" issue. Smoking isn't a right, it's a privilege. Smoking is not protected under any law. It's just something you can do which isn't illegal. So telling someone they can't smoke at an event, is not a violation of anything. Certainly not someone's right.

If the college students feel so strongly about smoking that they don't want to play because they can't smoke, then they can play leisurely as long as they want. They like smoking more than disc golf. Which is, in fact, their right.