Author Topic: Impending Invasions by Outsiders?  (Read 2625 times)

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HaterAde

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Re: Impending Invasions by Outsiders?
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2012, 03:40:53 PM »
I really like Loomis' "consistent recipe" notion. Having a consitent recipe would not only allow the players to know what to expect each year, but the KCFDC as well. How much easier would it be to prepare for the WO if we always knew which courses were being used?

Are the pros playing 4 courses this year for the 30th? Whichever those courses are, how about making them permanent for each WO afterward?

Captklank

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Re: Impending Invasions by Outsiders?
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2012, 03:54:31 PM »
As fast as the KC area is growing it is super hard to play the same courses every year.Isnt that why we put new ones in the ground so hopefully they will be used for tourneys !
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HaterAde

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Re: Impending Invasions by Outsiders?
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2012, 04:27:16 PM »
As fast as the KC area is growing it is super hard to play the same courses every year.Isnt that why we put new ones in the ground so hopefully they will be used for tourneys !

That's where Cooper's "B-tier" post comes in, Billy. At least there's some ideas being tossed around here, that's cool.

HaterAde

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Re: Impending Invasions by Outsiders?
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2012, 05:08:14 PM »
Another thing. Where are all the BoD members in this thread? 
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 05:38:05 PM by HaterAde »

Loomis

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Re: Impending Invasions by Outsiders?
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2012, 05:26:31 PM »
My vote is for every wide open that is B tier or better to be rosie, ww, and swope all in the gold positions, with blue valley being added only for NT years.

phisherman_77

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Re: Impending Invasions by Outsiders?
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2012, 06:30:09 PM »
My vote is for every wide open that is B tier or better to be rosie, ww, and swope all in the gold positions, with blue valley being added only for NT years.

2nd.

bensdadfred

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Re: Impending Invasions by Outsiders?
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2012, 07:01:53 PM »
My vote is for every wide open that is B tier or better to be rosie, ww, and swope all in the gold positions, with blue valley being added only for NT years.

 same old, same old...

With all the options we have...really?
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Loomis

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Re: Impending Invasions by Outsiders?
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2012, 08:39:18 PM »
Why not? The Memorial does it. USDGC does it (unless they change it to make the course tougher), Hambrick, Des Moines, AM NATS, Steady Ed, Beaver State, The Majestic, Almost all of the NT stops are the same course each year, with pin placements in the same place. So why not us?

Certainly there is flexibility, but for the most part the courses on the NT stay the same with a tweak here and there from time to time, which is usually always done to make the course harder, so why not? What do we lose by stream lining what we have? If we really want to make the Wide Open the biggest and baddest, why not make it a three or four day tournament and include all the PRO level courses in the area? (WW, Swope, Rose, BV, Cliff, and maybe one or two of the Smithville courses) What would the pros think if they saw the size and scope of this tournament as a monster each and every year? Why not be the toughest yearly tournament to win? A marathon of disc golf on awesome courses. I think that would set us apart.



bensdadfred

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Re: Impending Invasions by Outsiders?
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2012, 09:15:18 PM »
Many of those tournaments mentioned have courses that set them apart from most courses nationally. What does Rosie have? Rock fairways? Although Swope is rich in history, it is not a course that sets itself apart from any other city park. Blue valley is the exception in that list, or at least was. I haven't seen the new placements. I am excited about Smithville, but have only played 1 course there to date.

I'm just saying that we have so many options, why play the same mid grade courses we have been playing year after year? The sport is evolving, we should follow suit...
2 Things: Don't sweat the small stuff & everything is small stuff!

HaterAde

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Re: Impending Invasions by Outsiders?
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2012, 09:32:52 PM »
This is friggin' frustrating, guys. Both of you are making good sense with your arguments and its about to make my head explode because I can't choose a side. ;D

white mccoy

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Re: Impending Invasions by Outsiders?
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2012, 09:06:40 AM »
I believe that some people return to NT's year after year so they can play an epic course that they loved and would not otherwise get to play...such as Waterworks, Cliff Drive(Not so sure about Rosey or Swope).               
    I know that if I ever make it back to Oregon to play the Beaver Fling, I damn sure hope they would continue to play Milo McIver...because in my opinion, those are the 2 (best, most scenic, peaceful) courses I have ever played.     But, I also agree with Fred.  If you have a full repertoire of courses, you should rotate them into the mix, to give the locals a change, and show the out-of-towners that there is more than one great course to choose from.

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Tom

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Re: Impending Invasions by Outsiders?
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2012, 09:36:57 AM »
I don't know the WO course  schedule this year or usage. I would much rather see Wyco used before Rosey though. I do think SMP should be used too, mostly because of the historical implications.


Loomis

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Re: Impending Invasions by Outsiders?
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2012, 10:44:42 AM »
I don't think a rotation of courses will help the Wide Open, if you want to showcase other courses, hold other tournaments, which will show them off. If you want to show off, then just make it a large tournament with all of the Major courses put to use. Otherwise, consistency is what makes Beaver State, USDGC, Vibram, Steady Ed and the Memorial the tournaments they are. Because believe it or not, Beaver state has several courses in that area they could use which are just as bad ass as Milo but they don't. Same is true of Steady Ed and USDGC. The number of courses in one area isn't a blessing in those cases, it's a burden. Because instead of maintaining a steady tack in one direction and creating a consistent product, you are hampered with confusion among those who put on tournaments and those who will play it. Case in point: The Majestic in Minnesota.

For the past three years, Timmy Gill has run the Majestic and each year he has changed the tournament schedule. He has Blue Ribbon Pines, Kaposia, Hyland, the Golf Complex he has been building for several years near Northfield (a four course complex), and several other great challenging courses in the Twin cities area to chose from. Each of those last three years, Gill has waited until the 11th hour to choose which courses to play for the Majestic - a decision that has cost him. He desperately wants to show off his Northfield complex, but it's an hour south of St. Paul. So if he uses it, everyone needs to find housing near Northfield. And vice versa if he opts for the Twin Cities courses. Gil doesn't post his intentions on a website (which there is one par72discgolf.com) and he doesn't answer questions about what he's planning on doing. He just makes up his mind at the last minute. Three years ago, the majestic was one round at each of the three biggest courses; Kaposia, Blue Ribbon and Hyland. It was impossible to get into the tournament. It filled in less than 48 hours. Two years ago the Majestic was an NT. Everyone expected a repeat of the year before and it filled quickly. However, this time he used BRP twice for everyone and then split the ams and pros up to two different courses, which pissed off just about everyone. The next year, most of the pros stayed away because he AGAIN did not reveal the format until the last minute. People were gun shy about falling for Gill's indecisiveness again. It was obvious that this time Gill wanted the Northfield courses included, but they weren't ready. His last second decision kept a lot of people guessing and they stayed away. The tournament had a decent field, but nothing close to what it could or should have been.

If each year the Majestic was the same three tough courses, it would have the same turn out and it would need to find ways to work with the overflow. Instead, last year, the tournament didn't fill.

Beaver State has a lottery to get in. It fills so fast it will make your head spin. And they don't change a thing.
Memorial fills each year.
USDGC has people show up that didn't even make it and are there to pay to get in.
Hambrick fills.

IF you are consistent about the courses in your tournament, and the courses are an exceptional product, your only headache will be what to do with the overflow. Instead, each year we have two months of "what courses to use? who's going to do what? how do we get people involved?" and to be honest, it's hard to get people involved when there is no real idea of what IS going on.

And now we have a company coming to town who specializes in organizing tournaments by the effective use of its manpower. They run tournaments in Michigan (???) North Carolina (????) and most points in the Midwest. And they are a machine. Honestly, their tournaments are nothing special, but they come across as super bad ass when you compare them to the way other people run tournaments. I am concerned that if the company becomes too big that their over-inflated entry fees will kill the field sizes for most tournaments. They run almost one tournament a week. That is some serious organizing power. Especially when you consider how hard it is for our club to put on just one tournament in our own hometown.

As far as what courses to use, I'm sure it's open to debate over which ones are quality and which aren't. I will leave that to the organizing committee to figure out what they want to do. But as a touring player, I want the hardest, toughest, most challenging, most scenic courses available. The Wide Open should be the hardest and toughest tournament of the year. Harder than Beaver, USDGC and World's combined. We have the courses, so why not?


HaterAde

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Re: Impending Invasions by Outsiders?
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2012, 10:50:01 AM »
I've mentioned this before, but is there any way to poll the top-100-rated Pros and see what they think about either rotating the courses or keeping them consistent?

Loomis

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Re: Impending Invasions by Outsiders?
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2012, 11:37:06 AM »
Who would want to qualify for a tournament if the product isn't worth it?

Rotate the courses, we will never draw the field that puts us up on top. Des Moines doesn't rotate and they can. Beaver State doesn't rotate and they can. Alabama championships rotate, and it was a barren wasteland last year.

"showing off" which is mentioned so often, does nothing but backfire. Give them the best product every year, don't open yourself up to unneeded problems (a la Minnesota, St Louis, Oklahoma Open, Alabama, Atlanta). Instead, put forth the top courses each year (Nashville, Charlotte, Santa Cruz) and every year and you will create something larger.

Sadly, there is too much inconsistency in KC to guarantee a great product will be seen each year. Hence the nature of this conversation. We shouldn't have to be discussing this. We should instead be using this time to figure out ways to make what we have better. Instead of trying to figure out what exactly we DO have. We don't know which is the best course. Which is the best layout. Mixing it up each year? That's the B.S.. No one has the talent to do it! Swope was super tough last year. Are you going to do that again? Or will you take that off the list in favor of... of... what exactly? Rosedale Gold (with it's rocky fairways just like so many other courses on the NT) is tough... but we should switch that out with... uh.. uh... Blue Valley is a monster. We take that out, what do we replace our "monster" with? I'm sorry but there are just enough courses in KC to make ONE awesome tournament each year. Swope Gold. Rosedale Gold. Waterworks (modified). Blue Valley. Cliff (modified). Thornfield (maybe). Wyco nope. Olathe nope (especially now that it's lost trees). Lee's Summit nope. Shawnee Mission nope. Blue Springs nope (too short). Old Pike nope. Smithville (maybe... jury is out on that). What's left? What do we "CHANGE OUT and ROTATE?" Who is going to be pleased that you shortchanged them? Would you play Des Moines if you learned that they were going to ROTATE Pickard to every other year? Would you play Steady Ed if they rotated out Dela? Would you play Beaver State if they took out Milo?

What's our identity? What is the WIDE OPEN course which brings the players back each year? I certainly hope our identity isn't a town of bragging and showing off, but failing to share with others.

Ask the top 100 pros if they would play KC every year if it was always the gold layouts of rosie, ww, swope cliff and blue valley. See if they would say, "Really, no Olathe? No SM? No Wyco? Gosh, I don't know. I don't think I would come back if they didn't play Olathe at least once."

Running a tournament isn't about bragging about what we have. That's the wrong mentality to have. You want to brag, set up a website with lots of pictures on it. If you want to run a tournament; put on a show, make it a challenge, and make the prize worthy of the fight!

Tracy, you don't play a lot of tournaments anymore. Why is that?

As I said before, if you want to showcase what we have, make it one large tournament and use them all. Go big!!!