Author Topic: Grip Equipment presents The 31st Kansas City Wide Open-June 14-16 KCWideOpen.com  (Read 16347 times)

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spinachio

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I don't know how with computer/cell phone internet, how radar couldn't have helped make the call. I was at swope and it looked like it might stay south and it darkened up out east and I saw some bolts. These were already by us. Then winds picked up and then it dumped sideways. Finishing hole 7 Pete Cashen stopped us and hooked a ride up right as the rain started. Thanks for the ride. I would ultimately say if you're worried lightning is gonna hit nearby then stop, head to the TD and demand a stoppage. I think swope was handled fine. I've rarely seen players argue to stop for safety during the round.
PDGA# 51376

Loomis

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Dear mr slow pitch soft balls,

Did you play the tournament this weekend? I don't see your name anywhere. So where did you get this insightful outlook on this topic? I bet you just started reading today, huh? Are you sorta slow? i bet you wouldnt know if you were or not - its that bad, huh? I have a theory but we will get to that later. Keep up if you can but I can tell there isn't much hope of that.

I made my comments regarding weather and the need for some clarity on how to handle weather issues. Cause... Wait for it, this is the second time this year that a TD has had a tough weather issue to resolve. You with me so far, Mr. Slow pitch?

Then Kevin replied rather vaguely and spinelessly. He didn't say, "hey, I %$#@ed up and let jack pressure me into an unsafe call;" or "I panicked and made a bad call." Instead, he tried to dodge it. Then, like clockwork, the huffin' and puffin' crowd who always make empty comments like a bad politician seeking inclusion and acceptance, showed up with their defenses up in an effort to just move on and maintain the status quo no matter whether or not that is good or not...


Now I know I've said a lot so go grab someone and have it explained to you before I continue...

Kevin should have just said, "hey I screwed up. I won't do it again." He didn't. He scampered toward the dress and waited for others to obscure the issue.

Enter the huffin' and puffin' crowd. Yourself included.

You don't sound like you follow the threads real well to understand who is talking about what or what issues have been raised. You're an interloper in this situation and, I'm sure your parents and every girl you've ever talked to would agree with me - you're boring and in the way. So - and I'm sure you here this often - stay out of the way.

If cooper wants to comment about you I will leave it to him.

I'm sorry, I know I wrote a lot and there's no pictures.

Loomis

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And the discretion of the call is on the TD. If a player tried to leave his card before the TD calls it they get stroked. And Kevin knew the weather was bad as we discussed it 35 minutes before the call was made. Lightning was seen. Radars were viewed and Kevin even said, "it's coming." And yet it took him 35 more minutes to make the call. THAT'S the error.

However...

According to the PDGA it's his call and their are no guidelines to follow other than one persons opinion. Players can be stroked for defiance. Just to be clear.


coops

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Yeah. I'm not replying to Mr. Rhyno's comments. I sort of was expecting them to be deleted by now anyway.

I think there should be a brightline standard for when to call a suspension of play due to lightning. I like this detector thing a lot. I remember when my football coaches would have it out if the weather even looked dicey and if it got within a certain range that was that. There was no room for human decision it was simply a process of looking at the machine and doing what it said.

That sort of decision making needs to be removed from the process. Period. We don't want to get to the point where somebody gets killed during an event before things change.

jamidanger

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if you saw lightning, suspend play your self, I've played rounds with players that have done it, they say I ain't risking it. personally  i'll play hell or high water, but if the td blows that horn - game off. nobody will dairyqueen your ass for making a safe call within your group, but playing after the horn is different. same logic applies to shootings that a td may not see or hear. 3 rules of golf 1 : play safe 2 : be courteous 3 : all holes are par 3
espouse elucidation

robm

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I second the recommendation that the club purchase a minimum of 1, possibly up to 3 of the lightening detectors:

P5-2 Skyscan Lightning Detector

It is a good safety precaution.

It is a great liabilty precaution.

It should be required by the KCFDC to be used of any tournament that receives board approval on KCFDC maintained courses.  A $5-$25 fee (figure life expectancy and amortize the amount) could be charged to the tournament so there would not be any cost to the club.  A deposit should also be required that is refunded when it is returned.  If the TD is a recognized and responsible club member, the deposit could be waived.
KCFDC: 1507
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Tournament map: http://goo.gl/maps/AAYAj

mikedopen

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Ward, I think you being a little hard on the beaver.....


Just saying. ..
Mike D

kcRhyno

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Please forgive me, your Highness. I wasn't aware that nobody could or should ever oppose the genius that is Loomis. As soon as I figure out how to use a thesaurus, I will decipher your incredible response.  Maybe when I grow up, I'll be an incredible traveling Renaissance man like yourself. And no I did not play this event due to circumstances that are out of my control. I was at every round except for the first round at WW.  now, go blog about something, you amazing wordsmith you.
Cheers  ;D
Ryan "Rhyno" Westa
Do everyone a favor, pick up at least one piece of trash during every round.

kidmills

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it hard to understand why ya'll are worried about when the call was made,with all that was going on on this weekend,i guess it's the only thing you could find to complain about..............very well run tournament(with all that mother nature give us)

Loomis

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Trust me Mr. Slow Pitch, if you were worth the time or trouble I could spend all day on your tragic existence. Now go sit back down and do what you do best - be an example of a life spent on the sidelines. And if you feel my words are too much for you, I'm always free to make my points in person.

coops

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it hard to understand why ya'll are worried about when the call was made,with all that was going on on this weekend,i guess it's the only thing you could find to complain about..............very well run tournament(with all that mother nature give us)

It's simply an issue of magnitude. The caddy book was off, I wish there were tee times, and I'm sure there are a few others things I could nit-pick if I wanted to. The thing about it is that it was a very well run tournament even with its flaws. This issue, while we thankfully avoided anything dire this time, has shed some light on the processes and procedures involved in the safety aspect of our sport. Nothing happened this time, but it would be asinine to think that means nothing will happen in the future.

Minor problems can be forgiven. Events of major magnitude have to be considered. Like I said from the start: I'm not speaking to this instance as I wasn't on this course at this time. We were done at BV by the time the storm came in. I think there is something to be said for continually striving for improvement and establishing brightline safety requirements for our events.

jack

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Only a few instances of the Caddy Book were off, and that was from the information that was given to me by the person that did it.  I didn't do my due diligence in double checking all the information as I normally do because it was done by a third party this year in an effort to make it look better.  Since I am not running the event it will not be an issue next year for me.

THe weather is the weather.  You don't pull people off a course because there is a storm in the area 35 minutes away.  Kevin and I were in communication as I was with all the Course Directors about the timing of pulling people off.  Did we wait to long and some people got wet, sure, but the immediate threat that seems to be a topic in here wasn't the case.  Seeing lightning 20-30 miles away and having the technology to view it on the phones now adays makes the lightning detectors not as needed as some are implying here.  The PDGA used to have them and with the advent of the phones and the technology it is easy to identify patterns.

Too many times in our area it rains in Olathe and doesn't at WW, the same is made of Swope to Rosedale.  THe weather shifts, we were watching it, and when it looked to be as though that it was going to be passing over the areas affected, play was called.  Simple as that.  THe fact that it was discussed, "oh it's coming" as Loomis indicated, so what, it is coming, that doesn't mean pull them off right then, you pull them off when it becomes unsafe which is what happened.

AS for tee times, I will say it again and this really @#)(*&(*@#&(*_#W& irritates me, had you attended the players meeting you would have known this.....tee times would have happened if there were enough players to support it.  There was a plan in place to make it happen, but I am not asking my all volunteer staff to sit outside in the hot sun an extra 5 hours so you can play on a tee time.  Had we had people to be there to make it happen plans were in place to have that happen in the NT division.  Tee-times don't make an event, so get over yourself in thinking that, an event is made by the players and the mindset and attitudes that they bring.

THose of you that complained about tee times on the NT, the only thing that I really can say is that with tee times, the event wouldn't have finished and we would have quite possibly had to suspend play until Sunday at Blue Valley.  I for one was glad that tee times didn't happen exactly for reasons like this weekend.  Someone playing at 10am, was having less weather than a 1 pm start for absolute certain.

Run large events sometimes and you will see that it isn't about you and your desires, it is about the other 308 players out there and ensuring a fair format that works for everyone to have a balanced chance at competition.

Overall some mistakes were made, the stupid Drop Zones at Swope I am still hating that I caved.  A caddy book is off a few places on distances and one line with a map.......you didn't get tee times, I can live with all of these errors.  Next time you want to do something your way, step up and run the event.  That is the only way you will ever get your way.
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coops

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Boy, can't even take a compliment about a well run tournament.

The books: Not a problem for the locals but if I hadn't been local I would've been pissed. All in all not a big deal as they were, as you pointed out, mostly right. That being said, I don't think there is anything wrong with saying that they were wrong. It is a statement of fact and if we aim to improve in future years we can't be afraid of seeing the failures.

The tee-times: Not so sure why you're pissed off that I prefer events with tee times. It is a preference. Many great events operate exclusively on tee times and I, personally, like those events the best. You may not. It is opinion and while still open for debate, highly personal. As for saying that finishing at BV before the storm rolled in showed by tee times are not better I would point you to the old saying about hindsight. It is weak to suggest that because it worked in this instance it 'necessarily' means that it was better this way. But, lest you latch on to this one point to get upset about, let me say it again: the argument over tee times is largely an issue of preference.

The players' meeting: Not worth attending based on previous experience. I've played too many tournaments where it is simply a waste of time to even attend an on course meeting (though I still do). When it is off course and the night before an event and an hour away from my house, I'm not going to be there. Any pertinent information could and should still be covered at the course. And, in case you choose to berate me for not getting a caddy book as a result of not checking in myself I would say maybe make the check in times more friendly for those locals that are working the day before the event. Most days I would have been able to do it myself but that particular day was hectic at work and I didn't leave till almost 5, and hour after check in closed. The next time that I had heard I would be able to check in was around the players' meeting, which was several hours after the fact and not worth waiting for.

The lightning: Let me reiterate for those of you that can't seem to understand the point that I am making about this. I'm not talking about this particular instance and largely I'm speaking to the overall PDGA rules of competition but I think there needs to be a brightline standard for when to suspend play. Say any strike within 30 miles suspends play for at least 30 minutes or something like that. With that there also needs to be a reliance on the technology that we have to make the call for us. I've seen too many events where the TD is unwilling to call players off because they don't want to be viewed as making the call too early. And on the other side of it I'm sure there are times when the TD has called players off too early. My point is that there just need to be clear rules and clear devices that activate those rules.

In sum, it was a great tournament. Thanks to all the volunteers for making it happen. Thanks most of all to Jack for being the figurehead that has to deal with all of the circumstances that come up. Now, can we all stop being so sensitive and have real discussion about what went well and what didn't go so well so that we aren't doomed to repeat the latter?

coops

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http://www.pdga.com/rules/competition-manual/section-1-tournament-procedures/17-suspension-of-play

This rule sucks. With elections coming up I hope all of us contact some board members and those hoping to be elected and talk to them about it and how to improve it.

Loomis

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The cavalier attitude about weather is exactly what will come back to haunt some event and then we'll see what you think. The weather was sour and it was going to be an issue and we should have been pulled when lightning and thunder were present. Period. Again, your opinion was all that mattered according to the PDGA but I suspect that's about to change. Quite a few cards at swope were put off by the lack of appropriate action on behalf of this one call and felt it was handled poorly. Of course, the moments passed now and most of them have left town - though a few locals who could comment on the errant call are not "forum dwellers" and therefore have made no mention of their opinion.

I had no issues with any other aspects of the tournament other than the errant call at swope. I applaud everyone and everything else about the event and have my times both before, during and after the tournament. I stand by my statement about the call and will make my concerns about it known to the PDGA directly.

In the ocean of decisions that had to be made this weekend, this is the only one I have disagreed with. So consider yourself - and this event - a success! Pat yourself on the back again, jack, and try not to feel victimized because a few locals can twist your ear about what they thought about the weekend. I'm sure your vanity will survive this and, certainly, all future calamities that may befall you.

So can we please dump the empty, "then you run it then" woe-is-me responses?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 09:42:36 AM by Loomis »