Author Topic: Course Design Ideas  (Read 2111 times)

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TPalmer

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Re: Course Design Ideas
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2012, 10:07:42 AM »
I agree Jack.  Houck's name speaks for itself.  I enjoy reading his articles in DiscGolfer about course design and find his ideas from his extensive experience quite interesting.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 10:09:53 AM by TPalmer »
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robm

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Re: Course Design Ideas
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2012, 11:51:34 AM »
I agree Jack.  Houck's name speaks for itself.  I enjoy reading his articles in DiscGolfer about course design and find his ideas from his extensive experience quite interesting.
Yes, his articles in DGer are very educational.
(is very educational....omg i fills stoopid....)
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 03:17:19 PM by robm »
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Mike Hyzer

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Re: Course Design Ideas
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2012, 01:15:53 PM »
Dear haters......

Yes we do have some good course designers in town.  We also have a ton of courses.  Why on earth wouldn't we want to have a course designed by one of the premier architects currently in the game?

I for one am in the process of trying to get work for John in the area, here is my rationale.

Why not?  Why not have a "Houck Designed" course right here in the metro area to compare our solid folks against?  Why not have that to lure some people to the area that may want to just visit it as an attraction?  Why not then understand that the diversity we bring in may enable us to get new ideas from him, or solidify the notion that we do know what we are doing with our lands that we play on?

Though not a large proponent of Texas, his accolades follow him, as such wouldn't we be silly to shoo him away because of favoritism?

I for one am very interested in not only having a course here but hopefully the chance to work and develop them with him and learn from the experiences that he has.

Even with all of our wonderful folks designing courses in the area, collectively we are still a small fraction of the courses that he has designed.  You learn better tricks from the top pros to help your game, why not learn some new tricks from a top pro on the design side?

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jack

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Re: Course Design Ideas
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2012, 01:59:40 PM »
Oh, it's not the speed really so much, I just wish I hadn't drunk all that cough syrup this morning. ....

Where is your drill sergeant, men?
Blown up, sir!

Where have you been soldier?
Training, sir.
What kind of training?
Army training, sir.

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coops

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Re: Course Design Ideas
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2012, 03:16:36 PM »
Anybody who doesn't want Houck to design one of our courses doesn't know what they are talking about.

The only thing better would be to have McDaniel design one... with Houck and Duvall.

Loomis

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Re: Course Design Ideas
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2012, 06:28:34 PM »
I love this conversation. Keep going. And along with Houck... Mela's name should be in there. Tyler is a bad ass course. And whomever did the courses in Pittsburgh, their name needs to be included. Those courses are nasty.

I will weigh in when I'm sober.


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Re: Course Design Ideas
« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2012, 01:00:11 AM »
Okay.
For Jack. The courses in KC are just fine. All of them. For a casual golfer. And if that is the only aspiration for 95 percent of disc golfers, then we are indeed in Xanadu. You could live here forever and never ever have a solid reason to be bored with the courses. From Blue Valley to SMP to Parkville to Legacy to Waterworks to that Junior high in Olathe, there are enough disc golf vistas to keep the brain going for an eternity. So whomever we need to love on for all of their efforts up to this point, come on up and get some hugs fellas! It should also be stipulated amongst the rest of us that no one is complaining about what is already here but what we could have.. in addition.

What Cooper seems to be saying is that we need a Roy G, A De la, A Maple hill, A Fly boy... something that is full-time nasty and terrifying. Blue Valley is big, but it's not scary. Cliff has some tough shots, but again, not terrifying. Blue Springs has some grit, but it's also part time. What I think Cooper is trying to say is that we (the other 5 percent) need something that says "go away or I'm gonna hurt you!" Think, KCDFC GOLD course. The monster we kept describing in that thread. That's what we need. Not a bunch of holes from different courses, but one course that has it all.

The two best examples of public, well maintained full time bad ass parks are Idlewild in Kentucky, and Tyler Park in Pennslyvania. Both have multiple settings - pads and pins. BUT most of the time these courses are set in hard and when they change them, it's not to make them HARDER, but easier. The emphasis here is that the course is always a GOLD with the occasional option for vanilla. Tyler and Idlewild are big boy courses. Casual players can play them and they do, often, but they are designed for beating up on PRO's who can easily walk through a disc golf course eating up its challenges. Both courses stress long holes 450 plus feet per hole, elevation changes and complex OB. There are no short cuts. No cheats. You have to have THAT shot to play the hole, otherwise it's a long day. Down under is close, but it's tiny. Blue Springs is also close, but you have options. The rest of KC courses usually are only tough on "that one hole." Sometimes two.

Swope Gold is tough; what was par for that course? How many people went deep under par on it last year at the Wide Open? SWOPE GOLD will need retooling every year to keep up with demand of the tour. Look at Winthrop GOLD, it used to be tough, now the pro's eat it up. It desperately needs an upgrade (and an "AM" fumigation). When the game gets longer, the courses have to get longer. When the challenges are solved, new ones have to be made. This is the truth found in all sports. How did Tiger Woods change the course at Augusta National with his game?

The tournaments are going to see courses get much longer and narrower and with more OB. In order to keep up, we need to think of doing the same here. We need to surpass that demand before it leaves us in the dust. Let's get ahead of the curve and define it. And course designers need to keep that in mind when they put their courses together. Longer. Narrower. Lots of risk. Emphasize accuracy. Play against the confidence of the player. Challenge their ego.

I like playing in KC. Every time I leave to go play somewhere else, I can't wait to get back home to play.

I wish swope at a thousand more trees, two lakes, two creeks and a live bear wandering the course. Some day someone is going to put in a course down below 13 near the train tracks... Five 450 foot holes down there would be heavenly.

So, thank you, who ever did all this great work.

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Re: Course Design Ideas
« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2012, 11:24:01 AM »
Quote
Yes we do have some good course designers in town.  We also have a ton of courses.  Why on earth wouldn't we want to have a course designed by one of the premier architects currently in the game?

I for one am in the process of trying to get work for John in the area, here is my rationale.

Why not?  Why not have a "Houck Designed" course right here in the metro area to compare our solid folks against?  Why not have that to lure some people to the area that may want to just visit it as an attraction?  Why not then understand that the diversity we bring in may enable us to get new ideas from him, or solidify the notion that we do know what we are doing with our lands that we play on?

Though not a large proponent of Texas, his accolades follow him, as such wouldn't we be silly to shoo him away because of favoritism?

I for one am very interested in not only having a course here but hopefully the chance to work and develop them with him and learn from the experiences that he has.

Even with all of our wonderful folks designing courses in the area, collectively we are still a small fraction of the courses that he has designed.  You learn better tricks from the top pros to help your game, why not learn some new tricks from a top pro on the design side?

Jack

I completely agree with this...  even if our local designers can produce the same level course it wont have the drawing power.  If we can compare our local designs side by side with a course designed by a big name it could give our local designers a name.  Worst case is we learn something about course design.  Best case is our current courses gain more respect nationally.
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sportwood

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Re: Course Design Ideas
« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2012, 11:36:42 AM »
Well worded loomis.
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hberciunas

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Re: Course Design Ideas
« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2012, 12:50:14 PM »
Great discussion gentlemen and I understand need for both.

I am a first year player and began at PC before the changes. It was very challanging and yet fun for a beginner. The changes made last spring made playing very frutstrating for me and other beginners/rec players. At first I considered not playing there anymore or just skipping 12-16 because 13,14, 15 were just such hard work (mostly because of digging out discs in thorns and poisen Ivy and because I could keep out of it). I know several folks and see many more who just skip 12-16 everytime they play.

I think there are plenty of "tough" courses. I have only played BV a few times because I end up exhausted and frustrated. I love Cliff . . . now, becuase I appreciate the variety of play and challange. First time out, I only liked it because I got a birdie on 2.

I think it is important to have the challenge for the pros, but how many pros do we really have in town? Enough to justify cost and expense for long hard courses specifically for the pros?

Probably best is to have two or more tee pads. Mark one Pro and make it as tough as you want. We can still play short tees and learn. When we are ready we can take the challenge of the long tees. (I still like playing short at PC 2, cause I might get a bird or hit chains! Can't get close to island from long  tee. . . yet.)

A bit off the subject . . .

Another idea, that I would be willing to put some energy and time into is more beginner leagues. I have played several leagues where there are only one or two divisions. Either way, me and several in my level end up donating $5 or $10 to Advanced and above players. Even the "am" groups play 5-10 strokes better than most folks who play Rec division at tourneys. (I do really like playing with much better players . . . I play better and learn leaps and bounds when I do . . . thanks for letting me play with you all.)

Or maybe some leagues that play Cali or modified scoring rules. (muligans up to three for every stroke over par or ???)
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mperry

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Re: Course Design Ideas
« Reply #40 on: November 03, 2012, 01:05:53 PM »
I think it is important to have the challenge for the pros, but how many pros do we really have in town? Enough to justify cost and expense for long hard courses specifically for the pros?

Could it be possible that Kansas City doesn't produce many pros because of the lack of very difficult courses? I know many pros come from California and Charlotte where tough courses exist. I personally would like to see a really challenging course be put in the ground not just because I am becoming a somewhat strong advanced player and want to play it but I would like to challenge myself to continue to improve and throw some par 4 holes to work on different aspects of the game that I will be introduced to in am worlds. I love Kansas City and am blessed to learn this sport in such a convenient city but as I see my game improve I want to be challenged. Maybe that's just me.
Matt perry

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Re: Course Design Ideas
« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2012, 01:13:03 PM »
I for one like the challenging golf, but at the same time, putting in a short Tee Box can allow others to enjoy the game and only play the longs when they feel like it. I think it is harmful to not listen to the casual golfers who complain. You should be willing to make small concessions here and there to better the course for all, not just some.
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tla06

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Re: Course Design Ideas
« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2012, 09:01:44 AM »
While new courses are fun, I agree with what others said earlier that the manpower to maintain what we have has been seriously diluted with the courses recently added.  Trash everywhere and same ol', same ol' leaves a negative impression as much as a course being too hard or too easy. 
The courses we have, with creatively placed terra and flora, could be made a fair bit more difficult; and while maybe not being able to add footage to the level of difficulty, these obstacles will bring more "placement" shots to our courses and definitely add more strokes. This is part of what I think the OP was talking about.
So c'mon local course designers, lets make some of the old new again; you know, recycle.  Lets see if we can use some of the money earmarked for new courses to do some serious landscaping at the existing courses.
Wind??  What wind??

jack

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Re: Course Design Ideas
« Reply #43 on: November 05, 2012, 09:30:12 AM »
Interested Terry, though the money get's earmarked for the new parks as improvements, and enhancements in most parks are hard to come by, but I can see that thought as a component for advancing the courses.

On the Beginner's leagues, we have just the Monday at Rosedale, but I think that this topic will probably be discussed by the new BoD with some interest based on the comments in the forums here about a few of the items accordingly.

Thanks for good topics.
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robm

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Re: Course Design Ideas
« Reply #44 on: November 07, 2012, 12:29:20 PM »
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