Thoughts/Feedback

[Peter Bures]

With 90 people playing the Frostbreaker this weekend, and I know more of you have been playing these last few weeks, I just wanted everyone's thoughts on how SMP looks nowadays. We added a handful of new pins, put in some more trashcans, and did other course improvements.

It seemed to me like most people like the new stuff, but I wanted to get as much feedback as possible.

I also wanted to note, before anyone says anything. The gravel around the teepads serves a couple of purposes-

-Levels off the Tees, some had significant drop-offs. For safety's sake, now no one can roll their ankle off the pad or anything.
-In the case of rain, it should hopefully keep things dry around the tee. Even if it's wet on the gravel, we won't have mud issues.

I also want to say that I don't love the gravel, but it's an improvement on how things were before and it solves those problems. So it fixed those issues, but it's not perfect. I'd still be interested in hearing what you guys think of if, I just wanted to explain the rationale.

[mperry]

Personally I think the gravel is awesome! It is a great idea for keeping mud off the pads and giving people with longer run ups the ability to do so without having to step up onto the pad

[Old Pike Mike]

Peter,  thanks for the work and the thought you put into the course!  It was in very good shape and the new  pin placements were fun.  The gravel isn't pretty; but, we will appreciate it after a rain, and it will keep the erosion down.  I was lucky enough to have Feldberg's KCWO caddy, caddying for me the second round.  He is very knowledgeable and helped me shave 8 strokes off my first round caddyless score.  He had never seen the course; but, commented that it was a lot better than he expected from the feedback he had heard.  That is a good sign!

Overall, you should get very positive feedback.  There were a couple of shots on the back (might be holes nine and ten) which seemed like very similar shots back to back:  a straight to slightly hyzer 375 to 400 foot shot.  They were still challenging to birdie in the wind; but, overall, there was good variety.   

Also, there could have been a rest room somewhere on the course to reduce the number of indecent exposure claims by the Johnson County folks.  (Don't worry they can't prove it.) And, the beer cart girl, she didn't come around very often during the second round. . .

Thanks Peter and thanks to Scott/DD for running the tournament.   

Mike T. 


   

[Peter Bures]

I agree with you Matt in the sense that I have a long run-up so I benefit from the gravel in that way.

And thanks Mike, and you're right about a few holes having similar shots. This was my first time setting up a course for a tournament, and I learned a lot. I wanted to avoid simply putting every hole in it's longest pin for the tournament, but I ended up having a couple of things I wish I'd done differently. Holes 10 and 11, like you said, were pretty similar shots, Although not exactly the same (#10 has more trees). In retrospect, it would have been better to use the longer pin on #10; It's a bit longer and turns a little to the right, making the basket harder to get to. Rollers work well, and it's not an easy 3 like the one we used.

[jack]

I was lucky enough to have Feldberg's KCWO caddy, caddying for me the second round.  He is very knowledgeable and helped me shave 8 strokes off my first round caddyless score.  He had never seen the course; but, commented that it was a lot better than he expected from the feedback he had heard. 

Name dropper, why not just get the magazine and figure out the caddy in question?  :-)

Doesn't that caddy live in JoCo as well?  Hmmmmmmmm....

On a serious note, Peter the work that you are doing and communication with getting things moved forward is wonderful, and I am sure that you will do what makes sense with the land that is available accordingly!

[coops]

-Gravel was really nice. I seemed to keep the tees clean and if gravel got on them it was easy to knock it off. Plus it kept it level so you don't have to step up onto the tee if you choose to take a different angle of attack.

-I would have liked to have seen several par 4's or 5's. This is a general complaint against most of the disc golf in this city and it is in no way unique to SMP. The changes were nice and promise better things to come. An idea might be to look at using some temporary holes for tournament play. (The area to the west of basket 3 and tee 4 comes to mind as a place in the park that isn't otherwise used that could be expanded into, even if just for tournament play.)

-Something could have been done to liven up some of the up the hill and down the hill holes on the back. Maybe an island on that shorty uphill? Some creative OB? I know it was an early season tournament so I don't really expect it right away but it might be a good way to sharpen the teeth of the course without having to use extra land or make up pin placements.

[Peter Bures]

I hadn't considered adding OB to any of those on the back, but you're right that #15 uphill short would be a good candidate for an island or something.

As for temporary holes, we tossed around the idea but weren't able to get anything really put together before the event. The pond with the island (across the Road from #9) would be a great area, as well as the land near #3 and #4. There's plenty of good land near enough to the course, to add a handful of extra holes (likely not a whole extra 9, not for a one-day event).

[jack]

The island hole was the area for the first Wide Open that you are referencing.  Cooper do you mean to the east of #3?  I am confused by the west information.

I always thought that a longer to the south towards the treeline on #3 would be a much tougher par 4 shot there, it is a walk though to get to #4.  I think that initially one of the ideas that was discussed by Dirk and I out there on that was to get it over there and then cross the road, but we were heading south in that layout not north.  At any rate, taking that hole (on the hill) and moving it about 200' almost due south would create some tough shots, must hit the gap to get a good clean shot for a possible 3, or figure out an low anny (RHBH) or rolloer to get it to go there....the walk would be a little long, but then you could go accordingly and people would be visible walking as to not impede.

One thing that really bothers me on this is the notion that we need to go long though.  This is the BUSIEST park in the metro area, and if you make the course so long that people get frustrated, you may alienate them from playing.  You can indicate that there are plenty of other courses, but the fact remains, this is #1 in foot traffic in the area, so you shouldn't really be catering to the "pro level" disc golfer, but rather should be enticing people to want to play a fun, yet challenging course, that then would encourage them to go out and explore the other locations in town.

Be mindful.  This may not be the "first course" in town, but it is by far now one of the most viewed courses in town, and that attraction is more important than having a par 64 course for the sport.

However, exploring ideas on temp holes for tourney play as such is also a great idea.  One of the best things about KC golf is our ability to alter a course for level that is needed.  I would encourage you to use a portable basket at leagues that you run, if you need to borrow a basket, let me know, I can hook you up with one as well.

[AStomps]

more OB and a few island holes could have made it interesting.  6 and 8 specifically.

[Peter Bures]

I agree with you Jack, as is Shawnee Mission is very heavily played by mostly newer players; especially compared to other courses in KC. But I think having the ability to crank up the difficulty level significantly would be very advantageous. The fact of the matter is, the land at the park is amazing, and there is opportunity there that we don't have at courses like Waterworks or Rosedale. Those 2 courses, for example, are great courses but they can only be "Cranked" up so hard.

I think there is a potential "Shawnee Gold" comparable to the Swope Gold used for the Wide Open. So that 350 days out of the year, Shawnee is just a normal course, but occasionally the land can be stretched out and turned into a championship level course.

I do have one practice basket of my own, but I'll potentially look into using more this year at league. Last year I experimented with alternate Teepads, but this year I'd love to fool around with completely brand new temporary holes. Whether or not any of these holes will make into league play, I can't say. But myself, Steven Thimmesch, Jon Thomas, and others play out there a lot. I know we would love to try out some things on our own time.

[coops]

Jack, yes, I misstyped. East.

I hate this idea that we need to pander to newer players and will continue to have this argument till my voice goes out or my fingers fall off. New player can enjoy longer holes! The reason they don't enjoy BV is because it is all long and there is not reprieve. If the course has one or two 700s it won't stop casuals. In KC we need to address our stunning lack of Par 4's and 5's. Most of what we think of as harder holes here are really tweeners that shouldn't have a place in golf anyway.

But ultimately, I was talking about a tournament set up, with temporary holes. This wouldn't bother casuals at all since they don't play tournaments.

And I know I've brought this up before, but what would be wrong with doing some overlays on the current courses like Renaissance (and the gold version) or Hornet's Nest and Charlotte's Web? If you really wanted to beef up a course, keep it easy for the casual, but challenging for the players you could add... 3-9 harder baskets on existing holes or create brand new holes. That way the current 18 could still exist while having another 18 that plays harder. Or if you wanted to keep it in the KC vein of extra pin placements that move around, 3-9 extra sleeves that lengthen or toughen the course, that way some of the course is short, and some is long, regularly, and you've achieved a wonderful balance.

[robm]

I'm not a great golfer.  My rating is 828 for perspective.  I'm also 42 yrs old.

However, I really like challenging courses.  I'm not afraid of BV.  I just know I'm going to get a really, really high score.

The only thing I don't like is when I HAVE to carry 300' of water.  I can make it on a good/great day, but not every day.

I may be a bit unusual, and competitive in spite of my (in)abilities, but I don't think all casual / rec players are afraid of long holes.

[Kelly Markum]

Just throwing out ideas here. I know when i was new i liked how P. Hill had different pars for each hole based on your skill level. Pro, int, & novice. It made me feel good when i got a 5 on a hole par 5. It also gave me something to reach for knowing that the "good" golfers considered it a par 3. Maybe this would appease both the experienced golfer who wants tougher/longer holes & the novice who takes an 8 on a "par 8" hole.

[coops]

Just throwing out ideas here. I know when i was new i liked how P. Hill had different pars for each hole based on your skill level. Pro, int, & novice. It made me feel good when i got a 5 on a hole par 5. It also gave me something to reach for knowing that the "good" golfers considered it a par 3. Maybe this would appease both the experienced golfer who wants tougher/longer holes & the novice who takes an 8 on a "par 8" hole.

Yes. This!

The reality is that enjoyment is based a lot on expectations. If you can lower expectations for players that are not as skilled they feel much better when they can achieve those lower expectations.

It is as simple as making something that is a Par 4 for a pro a Par 5 or even 6 for a casual.

[robm]

I like this.

http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/ParGuidelines.pdf

It shows that some Par 3's for 1000 Rated players really are Par 5's for 850 rated players.