Author Topic: Shame-so many should feel it....  (Read 1466 times)

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jack

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Shame-so many should feel it....
« on: April 22, 2013, 12:57:49 PM »
So here is a great story......As I had indicated earlier in the week last week, I had planned to go out and do some of the work needed to continue with the new addition to Cliff Drive Disc Golf Complexion....I assumed that I would be working out there by lonesome, because, well let's face it, most of you reading this aren't getting up at 8 am on a Saturday to show up at Cliff Drive to work on a course. (Notably, most I indicated, some of you would...)  So I do this, I get up to the area that I want to continue to work on, and as I pull in, a bobcat is there pulling and collecting debris from the area that I have been working on.  I think to myself....hmmmmm.......that's cool, I wonder who that is doing this...great.....I pull a little closer, and it has the KCMO signatures on it.  I think to myself, well that is odd, did I sleep until Monday?  I know it is Saturday right?  So I get up there, and start talking with the driver.  He indicated to me that he was being pro-active and wanted to get moving on some of this. I was in awe!  Then he stated, "Everyone else is over on the other hillside.", I was really confused at this point.

So I hop back in my car and discover that a church (Redemption KC) has organized a workday focusing in the area.  They have over 100 volunteers that come in and clean and work and make a difference in the park.

Combined with the helpers of about 8-10 on the new area, and other areas of the park, it is looking good.  It does though beg the question though how come a church can get 100 people to the park to help, and we are having trouble getting 5......

I for one am ashamed that we aren't working stronger in our parks, and I ask that each of you plan on helping with the organized workdays coming up as we get ready to host our guests for the Wide Open.  Not only will it help the event, but we are the benefactors for months to come with the effort of the work we put in.  Sure it looks good on the weekend of the Wide Open, but after they leave town, it looks good for us in the future as well.

I tell, I was in awe of the folks out there doing work for the community to feel good about it.  Almost none of them lived in or around the area.  I was saddened by the knowledge that this group that has no affiliation with the area was able to make an impact that I feel we should as a collective group, but many times don't.

I do understand that this is a work that goes beyond the effort of one weekend, but when we have the efforts of a few dedicated, we will make this venue better, and many others.

They got a great deal done towards my own goals for the course, and I challenge you to help where they left off.

My other thought is to leave the club and join the church, as at least they seem to have people that care about things that may not matter to their local area, but matter the community they live in.  Kansas City.......
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Mike Hyzer

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2013, 01:48:38 PM »
It does though beg the question though how come a church can get 100 people to the park to help, and we are having trouble getting 5......

Duh, it's because the KCFDC is comprised of God-less heathens. ;D
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coops

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2013, 02:35:45 PM »
Why should the good deeds of another group be used to shame this group?

Can't we just laud their efforts, be proud of our community and carry on?

Which Redemption was it in KC? I found two websites:
http://www.kcredemption.org/
OR
http://www.redemptionkc.com/

I think, whichever one it was, we should send them some gratitude.

jack

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2013, 03:32:00 PM »
I agree Coop, and I already did that, and thanked them quite a bit.

The fact remains though that we aren't stepping up as much as we should, and that is the shame that i am attempting to put in front of people.  We need to do more, and we are big enough that we should be able to do more.

It isn't something that they will use, it is something that we will use, and therefore I feel that we as a collective group of over 300 active members, and over 1500 total members should be pushing each other to make it better.

Had I not posted this information none would be the wiser, and as we move forward without doing our fair share in the park, we will lose that respect, and trust with our parks partners, which will enable them to not care as much about the efforts of our club as they will be sporadic.  We need to be a driving force within our parks, or we need to get out.

I for one am at that point.  I am old, and have been doing work now in KC for about 15 years on the courses/grants/behind/in front of the scenes.  I am tired of it.  I won't be doing this much longer, and I don't see anyone else pushing people to try to gain traction to get it done.

If I don't do it who is going to?  Other organizations?  Rely on the P&R?

I have designed and/or worked on 10 courses in the area over the last 9 years.  Only Theiss, and Dick have really helped in that regards with the developmental aspect of it, but beyond courses, it has been getting things in place for the future so that people can carry the torch forward.

I don't see it happening, and it saddens me.  Until our little snobby group of players get out and do the work needed and get their fingers dirty, pick up trash in areas, not in my back yard, we won't continue to move forward. 

Instead it is where can I play.  So as we move forward who is going to be doing that?  Who is going to be leading that?  At this point I have helped to write grants, helped to bring in worlds, helped to keep NT's in KC with a very few dedicated individuals.  I mean a few dedicated folks.  I spend on average probably close to 300-400 hrs a year at meetings about ensuring our place at the table.  You know who I don't see, others in the disc golf community.......

I am tired of looking around feeling as though it is something that a group does, and then the group doesn't do it.

Prove me wrong is what I am asking.  Prove me wrong, show me that our collective disc golf group is willing to coordinate and get 8-10 people out at each course for 4-6 hours of work a couple times before the wide open.  That you will attend P&R meetings, neighborhood meetings, etc...to showcase what they are talking about and how we are a part of the vision moving forward.

Joining the club is easy, throwing money at the club to support it is harder, but easier, giving your time to the cause to ensure longevity is what I am talking about, and that is where my gripe stems from currently.

I am sure that it will change as well about what I want to gripe about
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Mike Hyzer

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2013, 04:05:27 PM »
Why should the good deeds of another group be used to shame this group?


Yeah, Jack! This group could have easily been shamed without mentioning another group!
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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2013, 04:14:37 PM »
I hesitate to even get into this and am doing so against my better judgment, but here goes:

I, personally, feel that a lot of the lack of participation can be drawn back to the organization of work days, a lack of feeling welcome/wanted, location of the work, and an overall sense that many voices that are not the 'main players' aren't wanted. I'll go over each point one by one.

Organization: I have to admit, Cliff is one of the better organized work days out there as far as getting the word out about the day and so forth. Let me use another example which I think is more endemic of how DG work days tend to go. Perry. I had volunteered on multiple occasions to go help out at Perry since it is much closer to Lawrence and I thought it would be cool to see a course go in from the get-go. Unfortunately, in that specific case, it was never advertised till a day or so before the work day and in that time I had already gotten plans together, whether leaving town or a tournament or whatever else.
Also part of the organization is the fact that many of us don't have the tools to really be all that effective when we volunteer. As a renter I very few tools and the work days that I've shown up to have only had a couple people who could really do much work because those were the people that brought their own tools like chainsaws, polesaws, and hedge-clippers.

Lack of welcoming/wanting: Two specific reasons I have here. One specific work day that I've attended (and relating to a lack of adequate tools mentioned above) I was chastised for doing work that wasn't 'good enough' or looked bad. I think it is a pretty easy point to prove that someone or people who aren't happy that you are working on their days off and are willing to berate you for said work doesn't make me want to show up to many more work days.
Another example comes from a very recent course, the Lakeside course in Olathe. A lot of people, including many Olathe regulars (like me) weren't even aware the course was going in until the pins were in place. If that doesn't scream not welcome then I don't know what does.

Location: This one is simple and fast. I'm not going to drive to Cliff for a work day. I drive from Lawrence to KC Monday through Friday for work and I'm not going to go all the way to Cliff for more work on Saturday. If I drive that far I'm playing. I might pick up some trash or move some brush while I play but not more than that. I may drive to Olathe for a work day, or Perry, but not all the way in. I think this goes to what we consider our home courses and where we should be working. I think that this is actually a good thing too. We should have ownership of our home courses and should work at them and not sacrifice that work for another course outside our purview.

I'll call this one elitism: This one is just an overall sense that I get that many players views are welcome. I know that you point out that only you and John Theiss and Dick have actually designed courses (to which I would add Tom Butler and Andy Lewis for Lakeside) but that doesn't mean that others don't have valuable input for how to design or redesign a course. I think it is a shame that many of our potential 'new' courses don't have play test days where Arturo and Tank and Jake and Joe and Matt Perry and Jordan and all of these great or soon to be great players get to check it out and offer feedback. Yes, it is hard to design by committee, I get that, but that doesn't mean there isn't a way to get that sort of information and have one person be in charge for deciding what should happen.
And I know on multiple occasions I've voiced opinions on here that you have responded to and said essentially "well as soon as you put in as many hours as I have your opinion can have some weight". I get that you've done a lot of work and I'm very thankful for that, but the assumption that amount of work suggests or predicts a correct viewpoint is fallacious.

So, there's the problems, how do we fix it?

Ownership is the only way I can see. I like the idea that we sort of have a bunch of mini-clubs within the club. There would be people who would claim Cliff as their home, those that would claim the Olathe courses (I think they call themselves birds), a Waterworks and Old Pike Club, Wyco and SMP. There then, should be no expectation, that someone calling Olathe their home should be expected to work in KCMO and vice versa.

P.S. -  None of this is meant to be mean-spirited or sympathy-seeking or whatever else you want to call it. I am merely trying to think about the issues raised in the original post, espouse the view of those of us who do not attend these work days, and to try to see what we can do to resolve those issues.

P.P.S. - Which Church was it? I think that we should have everyone who wants to write them an email to say thanks. At the very least please PM me the answer because I want to.

P.P.P.S. - Let's hope this rain holds off. I want to play some Cliff tonight!

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2013, 04:29:56 PM »
Nice post, Coop. I just don't get the part where you say you're hesitant to post it. That was a whole bunch of "telling it like it is", and there ain't nothin' wrong with that. Let's face it-- most of the time, the truth, or "telling it like it is", sounds negative. Don't let the idea that folks might think you're an arse for speaking the truth keep you from doing just that. Sure beats burying our heads in the sand and pretending that everything is cool all the time when it isn't.

Anyway, yeah, nice post.
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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2013, 05:19:15 PM »
Nice post, Coop. I just don't get the part where you say you're hesitant to post it. That was a whole bunch of "telling it like it is", and there ain't nothin' wrong with that. Let's face it-- most of the time, the truth, or "telling it like it is", sounds negative. Don't let the idea that folks might think you're an arse for speaking the truth keep you from doing just that. Sure beats burying our heads in the sand and pretending that everything is cool all the time when it isn't.

Anyway, yeah, nice post.

Thanks. I mostly meant that I didn't want to piss anybody off. I really think there is a way to communicate what I was trying to and to do so without being offensive but also by covering important discussion points and really trying to get at the heart of what Jack is talking about. It is certainly 'telling it like it is' and I also think that is valuable.

I also don't want to be pity-seeking or for anyone to feel like I'm just upset about not being included or need to be treated with kid-gloves. I am a big boy and can deal with some criticism, but I think when examining these issues it is important to consider that these sorts of behaviors can be deterrents to getting our courses in the best shape and operating cohesively as a club.

Also it was raining when I left work so I just came home. I hope that league happens still but I've just had too much poor weather golf recently to go seeking it. Hopefully one of these weeks I'll actually get to make PDGA league.

ekolk

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2013, 09:25:43 PM »
Don't ever worry about pissing someone off. My two cents. That's how things sometimes get done. I have been thinking about this topic for years and do often wonder why it takes the community of God to make something happen. It is a shame most people don't give, and I mean truly give, for all the right reasons. I am a huge supporter of local churches everywhere as they do so much good. And why do they do it? Well, that may be very personal to each individual, but I can bet one part is the camaraderie of doing something with friends for one purpose.  I think we have that in this dispersed and rag tag group. However, the fissures you speak of are obvious.

I agree with the railroading certain members often engage in to push a single agenda. I am glad to hear someone say it. I work against and with it but I am just one person.  Yes, we have lots of work to do in this organization. Communication is dysfunctional among us.

I have similar experience with trying to organize workdays. I get lots of advice about what I should and could do. I don't want to do it. I want some help. BTW, Patrick Smith and Chris Millsap have been great to work with at Swope.  I guess my stance is to keep going out and doing what I can and trying to encourage and engage more people. It is my M.O. to lead and model what I think works.

As for the PDGA league, I went out tonight and played with Ryan Keck and CD. What great company. They were so kind as they watched my good round implode. :)  The worst part was as I came in and announced my out-of-character 63, Jack was so happy because he qualified and beat me. :) Next time!  ;)
« Last Edit: April 22, 2013, 09:40:21 PM by ekolk »

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2013, 11:34:11 PM »
what-ev, our golf community? more charities than i care to name and beaucoup park improvements, thanks church people, you are now one of us!
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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2013, 07:58:54 AM »
Coop, (and anyone else that I didn't notify):
Sorry you didn't get invited to one of our workdays. As the sole designer and instigator of Lakeside Hills, my plan was to keep the course a secret until the day of the Ram N Salmon, and then Andy was going to spring it to the players at the morning players meeting that the second round would be at the Lake. That didn't happen of course, but that was the main reason for the secrecy. Addiitionally, as always, we had plenty of hands and crew to get done what we needed to. As you know, we never have a shortage of volunteers for workdays in Olathe. I also felt a little left out at recent workdays, as my chainsaw was broke down from the last workday at PC, but anybody can go to home depot and buy a machete for under $20. Machetes and axes are awesome tools whose use builds character. (ie, just look at what a character Danger is)

We will be setting in some alterrnate sleeves, modifying some tee locations, and doing a little bit of clearing on an upcoming weekend when the ground drys and the temps increase. Watch this forum for the announced date. I typically make it tentative until a day or two before, because in an outdoor working enviroment we are always at the mercy of Mother Nature. In the mean time, Cliff has an upcoming workday I beleive, and PC will be needing a mow on the pond bank before long. Brian Taylor, Mark Albers, Brian Corneilius, and Leevarn Sarvis put a mow on it last year all on their own, without an "official workday" being announced. To finish this post I would go on to say that all of us can perform one of the best pieces of work everytime we play ANY course, simply by picking up any trash we see laying around in the parks.  :)

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2013, 08:15:03 AM »
Coop, (and anyone else that I didn't notify):
Sorry you didn't get invited to one of our workdays. As the sole designer and instigator of Lakeside Hills, my plan was to keep the course a secret until the day of the Ram N Salmon, and then Andy was going to spring it to the players at the morning players meeting that the second round would be at the Lake. That didn't happen of course, but that was the main reason for the secrecy. Addiitionally, as always, we had plenty of hands and crew to get done what we needed to. As you know, we never have a shortage of volunteers for workdays in Olathe. I also felt a little left out at recent workdays, as my chainsaw was broke down from the last workday at PC, but anybody can go to home depot and buy a machete for under $20. Machetes and axes are awesome tools whose use builds character. (ie, just look at what a character Danger is)

We will be setting in some alterrnate sleeves, modifying some tee locations, and doing a little bit of clearing on an upcoming weekend when the ground drys and the temps increase. Watch this forum for the announced date. I typically make it tentative until a day or two before, because in an outdoor working enviroment we are always at the mercy of Mother Nature. In the mean time, Cliff has an upcoming workday I beleive, and PC will be needing a mow on the pond bank before long. Brian Taylor, Mark Albers, Brian Corneilius, and Leevarn Sarvis put a mow on it last year all on their own, without an "official workday" being announced. To finish this post I would go on to say that all of us can perform one of the best pieces of work everytime we play ANY course, simply by picking up any trash we see laying around in the parks.  :)

Blaming the Ram'N'Salmon for keeping Lakeside a secret is TOTAL BS.....we joked about this at time to time but it was never a truly viable option.  Don't drag my tourney into this!

Tom did all the up-front work with the city and there are more reasons he can elaborate on, so please solely focus your comments towards him since I had "nothing" to do with it.  I just added man power to the efforts...and Brody (4 yrs old) power..that is what I'm proud of.

I know sometimes people are not brought into work days because all the want to do is stand around and say "What if", or "Why not this" all day and never GET TO WORK!

As far as the lack of power tools....I suggest pick up trash...clear debris from fairways, line paths with rocks...trust me...power tools do not make it more fun.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 08:21:59 AM by The Bird Father »
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Mike Hyzer

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2013, 08:35:50 AM »
line paths with rocks...

Good one, I bet that's not something people think of very often. It's the little things, y'all!
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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2013, 08:38:55 AM »
Tom: It wasn't the point of my post to elicit an apology or even to blame you for anything. I was just using things from my personal experience that I thought proved the points I was trying to make. Also, Andy is the one who broke the news on Facebook.

Andy: I'm not saying the lack of tools is the ONLY reason for not showing up to a work day, I'm saying it is a contributing factor. There isn't one simple reason people choose not to show up, often it is a plethora of many small reasons, among which is being forced to stand there and say "what if" because you don't have any tools to actually help contribute.

And let me take a minute to address this "what if" and "why not this" situation. If a work day, when things are actually getting changed and decisions have to be made, isn't the time to do it then when is? I have and will continue to be a supporter of some crowd-sourcing designs. I think, obviously, that one or two people have to be the main decision makers but we have enough talented players in this city who have played enough courses that they should be asked what they think about changes or new holes. We are trying to create/provide the highest quality golf possible and while it is entirely possible one designer could get there on his/her own it is more likely that a group of people, offering different solutions among which the best are chosen, will actually get there. The GET TO WORK mindset can cause just as many problems as it solves. Think about those intrepid souls that decided to get to work on new hole 13 at PC and took down those little fledgling pines in the fairway. I'm sure many of wish they had thought about what they were about to do and hadn't just gotten to work first.

Also, admitting that people aren't brought into work days or invited for specific reasons (like the one in the previous paragraph) is the exact sort of elitism I was critiquing in my original post. If we want people to show up and help out people need to be welcome. We can't be, nor should we be, selective about who gets invited. I understand what Tom's original goal was though I'm not sure it was the best way to go about it. But that isn't the point of any of this. Like in golf that shot is gone by. the only thing we can do is worry about the next one we have to make, and that seems to be attendance at course-improving events.

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2013, 08:46:28 AM »
Tom: It wasn't the point of my post to elicit an apology or even to blame you for anything. I was just using things from my personal experience that I thought proved the points I was trying to make. Also, Andy is the one who broke the news on Facebook.

Andy: I'm not saying the lack of tools is the ONLY reason for not showing up to a work day, I'm saying it is a contributing factor. There isn't one simple reason people choose not to show up, often it is a plethora of many small reasons, among which is being forced to stand there and say "what if" because you don't have any tools to actually help contribute.

And let me take a minute to address this "what if" and "why not this" situation. If a work day, when things are actually getting changed and decisions have to be made, isn't the time to do it then when is? I have and will continue to be a supporter of some crowd-sourcing designs. I think, obviously, that one or two people have to be the main decision makers but we have enough talented players in this city who have played enough courses that they should be asked what they think about changes or new holes. We are trying to create/provide the highest quality golf possible and while it is entirely possible one designer could get there on his/her own it is more likely that a group of people, offering different solutions among which the best are chosen, will actually get there. The GET TO WORK mindset can cause just as many problems as it solves. Think about those intrepid souls that decided to get to work on new hole 13 at PC and took down those little fledgling pines in the fairway. I'm sure many of wish they had thought about what they were about to do and hadn't just gotten to work first.

Also, admitting that people aren't brought into work days or invited for specific reasons (like the one in the previous paragraph) is the exact sort of elitism I was critiquing in my original post. If we want people to show up and help out people need to be welcome. We can't be, nor should we be, selective about who gets invited. I understand what Tom's original goal was though I'm not sure it was the best way to go about it. But that isn't the point of any of this. Like in golf that shot is gone by. the only thing we can do is worry about the next one we have to make, and that seems to be attendance at course-improving events.

Not trying to argue....just "speaking the truth".  And as far as "Getting to work"..you can't roll vandals and workers up in one ball and call it a mindset...it just doesn't make sense....or cents...haha

...perspective is a very hard topic to put into words....no...hard to understand...in written words.

Another "hard truth" 70% of the people you see getting dirty on the course, actually working, do not read/care about this forum.

Notice: None of the above statements are personal attacks, just opinions of a "worker".
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 09:03:37 AM by The Bird Father »
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