Author Topic: Shame-so many should feel it....  (Read 2228 times)

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The Bird Father

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2013, 08:59:03 AM »
Can you imagine if all the effort on this forum to make people "feel better" about not making work days was actually put into.....wait for it......WORK DAYS.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 09:05:15 AM by The Bird Father »
Just Another Dirty Bird

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coops

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2013, 09:07:50 AM »
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Not trying to argue....just "speaking the truth".  And as far as "Getting to work"..you can't roll vandals and workers up in one ball and call it a mindset.

It is also an assumption that they weren't thinking themselves workers when they did it. Just because from the viewpoint of the people who helped design and build the hole and take care of the course their work was the action of vandals does not mean they didn't suppose themselves to be doing something for the greater good. Obviously we could talk about the people who destroy tee-signs as vandals, and those that graffiti the baskets, but people who cut down trees to make clearer or easier lines are not the same. That difference and that assumption is why I feel comfortable calling it a mindset.

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Another "hard truth" 70% of the people you see getting dirty on the course, actually working, do not read/care about this forum.

I don't understand this point. Just because many people who do a lot of work at the courses don't read or use the forum doesn't mean it can't be a valuable tool for increasing participation and communication of work days. If anything, I would read into this that there needs to be more effort and organization to prepare for work days and to get the most people out to make a difference.

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Notice: None of the above statements are personal attacks, just opinions of a "worker".

Didn't take it that way. I think there can be hearty discussion and heavy disagreement with no interpersonal ramifications. I think debate and argument, which often have a negative connotation, can be some of the most fruitful ways to contribute to the ideas that make us who we are. Arguing is good for us. It helps us test the truth and to determine the best path.

coops

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2013, 09:18:55 AM »
Can you imagine if all the effort on this forum to make people "feel better" about not making work days was actually put into.....wait for it......WORK DAYS.

I don't mean to be nit-picky. I really don't, but this doesn't make any sense.

1. It isn't like we can 'bottle' this effort on forums and just use it at a later time.
2. It is absurd to think that by me actively thinking about how to make work days more accessible and welcoming to the variety of members of the KCFDC I am not contributing. It isn't like I'm going to go work on a course at 9AM on a Tuesday when its raining/sleeting and in the low 30s.
3. I may be missing it but I'm not seeing anything that is trying to make people "feel better" about not showing up for work days. I think that characterizing this discussion that way is making a straw man of my arguments.

The Bird Father

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2013, 09:22:07 AM »
Can you imagine if all the effort on this forum to make people "feel better" about not making work days was actually put into.....wait for it......WORK DAYS.
3. I may be missing it but I'm not seeing anything that is trying to make people "feel better" about not showing up for work days. I think that characterizing this discussion that way is making a straw man of my arguments.

Looks like you got a busy day ahead of you then....   ;D
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mikedopen

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2013, 09:37:46 AM »
did someone say personal attacks. Was that my cue? ::)
Mike D

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2013, 09:42:33 AM »
Ownership and pride comes from within.  You are both right, it takes very little to improve the course as you play it.  Rocks along the fairway will help, picking up trash helps.  There was very little trash last night at cliff, it was nice.

Until though we can get that ownership and unity I find it hard.  I will start to work on better announcements of workdays at leagues that I am playing (when I have time, or ask those directors running leagues to announce it for me) better visibility at the Marquee's.  I am going to be making a sign today to post in the Cliff that looks like a Help Wanted sign.....then announces the dates, and what needs to be done at this course in particular. 

I think that everyone has a fine opinion, and Cooper, you may not realize this but Cliff was designed by many years of temporary set ups initially.  I took input from players and other designers, infact I begged for it.  Same at Blue Valley....I will probably do the same at Hodge Park when I get done with the clearing there by the city for the course, but the issue on that land is that once it is cleared, hey, it is what we have.  Hidden Valley the constraints were from the park design manager......to name a few.

You can't, and nor would I want to have "seasoned" players design a course, you will end up with a course that is only for them.  There is a balance, and we are "making big courses" today in many parks that will turn off the newer player.  I understand, "we have a ton of smaller courses already" mentality that you feel, but here we are with over 30 courses in the area, and only 300+ in the club.  When we had 5 courses we had 150+ in the club....so do the math, we are missing people joining the club, and that "elitist" mindset has much to do with people not comfortable coming on a course with 400' shots and 2 dog legs to get there.

The next courses at Cliff will be nice and play in our game of design skill, but there will also be a nice little course for people to start out on as well.

Bottom line, PRIDE, OWNERSHIP, DETERMINATION to make it better comes from within.  I worked for a few years on courses in town before I realized that organization was needed to make it impactful.  I still work on courses now without telling people and screaming to the world.  Am I working on the courses when I sit in front of my computer and write grants, send notes to the local civic leaders about our sport?  I am, I am doing what I can to help, and I realize I enjoy it more than most.  All I am asking and what i was attempting to start was a way to make those of you reading this that working for a couple of hours a month on a course in unison with others collectively will be more impactful, so please step up and help.
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jack

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2013, 09:44:05 AM »
did someone say personal attacks. Was that my cue? ::)


Now go back to watching!
 ;) ;D
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Jack Lowe-
Parks Development Director for KCFDC
Multiple PDGA Worlds TD
Course Designs
913.485.5123-C
"Disc Golf-
Like ball golf, only faster,
cheaper, and healthier!"

mikedopen

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2013, 09:52:19 AM »
Mmmmm... ok
did someone say personal attacks. Was that my cue? ::)


Now go back to watching!
 ;) ;D
Mike D

Loomis

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2013, 11:19:02 AM »
Everyone has their own particular way of being involved and not everyone can be a "work day" sort of volunteer. What may seem like a relatively simple act to some may not be to another. Time issues, physical limitations, anxieties about what is involved. Some people do a little. Some do a lot. Some do things that others can't. I know I can't do what Timko or Jack can do with the paperwork and number crunching; or what Utz does with the website. For some people, a work day getting dirty might be more palatable - and I respect that, but it's not for everyone. I think a lot of frustration comes from the fact that not enough people want to do the dirty work. But not everyone wants to do the number crunching either. Not everyone wants to go to a city board meeting.

But let's keep this on the manual labor side of things.

So how do you motivate someone to want to take their free time and go out and work? This is generally a time they set aside for playing disc golf or do something else in their life. So you have to ask them to take their disc golfing "time" and head out to pick up trash, clear brush, etc. How do you get someone to leave the discs at home and come out and work instead? Obviously asking them does very little. Berating their lack of effort does even less. Of the hundreds of players in our area - most of whom who are not actively involved with the club outside of the occasional league, or a mild curiosity when they visit this site - how do you get ten of them to give back to the club they may not feel a part of? Most recreational players seem to think that the parks departments do the work. Disc golf volunteering is a labor of love and it's its own reward. But when a sport is designed as a quick-fix/self-rewarding/almost cost free diversion from the day; how do you convince the players to invest in the long term salvation of that view?

Most people love the sport as a pleasant diversion. When it becomes work, it won't be a pleasant diversion. Many people don't want to run the risk of losing that.

Maybe the club brass would be willing to discuss work hours on the courses in lieu of club dues. Perhaps that would motivate people.




coops

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2013, 11:58:29 AM »
Everyone has their own particular way of being involved and not everyone can be a "work day" sort of volunteer. What may seem like a relatively simple act to some may not be to another. Time issues, physical limitations, anxieties about what is involved. Some people do a little. Some do a lot. Some do things that others can't. I know I can't do what Timko or Jack can do with the paperwork and number crunching; or what Utz does with the website. For some people, a work day getting dirty might be more palatable - and I respect that, but it's not for everyone. I think a lot of frustration comes from the fact that not enough people want to do the dirty work. But not everyone wants to do the number crunching either. Not everyone wants to go to a city board meeting.

But let's keep this on the manual labor side of things.

So how do you motivate someone to want to take their free time and go out and work? This is generally a time they set aside for playing disc golf or do something else in their life. So you have to ask them to take their disc golfing "time" and head out to pick up trash, clear brush, etc. How do you get someone to leave the discs at home and come out and work instead? Obviously asking them does very little. Berating their lack of effort does even less. Of the hundreds of players in our area - most of whom who are not actively involved with the club outside of the occasional league, or a mild curiosity when they visit this site - how do you get ten of them to give back to the club they may not feel a part of? Most recreational players seem to think that the parks departments do the work. Disc golf volunteering is a labor of love and it's its own reward. But when a sport is designed as a quick-fix/self-rewarding/almost cost free diversion from the day; how do you convince the players to invest in the long term salvation of that view?

Most people love the sport as a pleasant diversion. When it becomes work, it won't be a pleasant diversion. Many people don't want to run the risk of losing that.

Maybe the club brass would be willing to discuss work hours on the courses in lieu of club dues. Perhaps that would motivate people.

It is times like this we need a 'like' button so I can bug someone about putting on a 'love' button. Great analysis, Loomis!

coops

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2013, 12:55:41 PM »
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The club has not been promoting its primary purpose to the public.  Putting on leagues or hosting the KCWO is not the clubs primary purpose.  Though it certainly appears that way, doesn't it? As mentioned, most casual golfers think the P&R for their course do everything. The public has no idea what the club (membership) has done and continues to do to further the growth of disc golf in the area. The public does not understand that the club (membership) spear heads developing new courses, course maintenance and course improvements.  I feel the club can and should increase community awareness as to what the KCFDC is really all about. 

I'm not trying to be snarky, funny, or whatever else, but what is the point of the club then? I am a member and I have no idea what the point is. If you had asked me I would have said leagues, KCWO, and club championships, probably in that order. I know course maintenance is in there on a lot of courses but I thought that was an ancillary goal to the others.

coops

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2013, 01:07:31 PM »
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Until though we can get that ownership and unity I find it hard.  I will start to work on better announcements of workdays at leagues that I am playing (when I have time, or ask those directors running leagues to announce it for me) better visibility at the Marquee's.  I am going to be making a sign today to post in the Cliff that looks like a Help Wanted sign.....then announces the dates, and what needs to be done at this course in particular. 

Excellent.

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You can't, and nor would I want to have "seasoned" players design a course, you will end up with a course that is only for them.  There is a balance, and we are "making big courses" today in many parks that will turn off the newer player.

I'm willing to have this argument till I'm blue in the face. Every course in the city is friendly to beginning players EXCEPT big Blue, which has its own flaws and is hard to even consider with the rest. I think there is a huge misunderstanding when it comes to courses that are hard and courses that are long for the sake of long. It is entirely possible to have a 200' hole be the hardest hole on the course just as it is possible that a 500' is the easiest.

It is also pure lack of ingenuity that says that a course has to be for beginners or experts. Look at Charlotte and all of their wonderful courses. They are some of the hardest in the world, but they also have entirely different layouts on the same piece of land that allows everyone to enjoy. Look at Maple Hill, same thing. Look at Wilbur Young, same thing.

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When we had 5 courses we had 150+ in the club....so do the math, we are missing people joining the club, and that "elitist" mindset has much to do with people not comfortable coming on a course with 400' shots and 2 dog legs to get there.

Number of courses to club membership is a poor metric for determining course usage. If you go to Rosedale, Swope, Prairie Center, Shawnee Mission, Water Works, or almost any other course on a nice day you will see the courses jam packed with players. How many of them know what the club is? How many of them know how the courses got there? And, most importantly, how many of them are having fun?

The reality is that the club has done a poor job showing why it is important and being visible to these players. They enjoy the fruits of our labor, as well they should, but don't know who convinced the city to build the course, who designed it, or that there is even a club in the city!

Course usage is what needs to be considered when looking at how we build and design courses, and we cannot be afraid to dream big and to make championship style designs. With ingenuity they will be fun for all. And if they aren't? Then they will be fun for the 300+ players in the KCFDC and the hundreds of players who still view KC as a mecca of disc golf and make the pilgrimage here ever Spring and Summer.

john theiss

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2013, 01:29:24 PM »
 I want folks to know that Liberty will be having work days every weekend  till we open this place up.I will start posting what time and what date under GENERAL BANTER- LIBERTY WORK DAYS.   If you are interested in helping with tee pa/pin locations and practice throwing the course, moving debris, cutting out roots with loppers  left from the brush hog, spraying ivy, etc please let me know.  i go out and work every TR because my wife has class and i get the free pass. i am also up there every wknd on Sat or Sun, sometimes both.   I have always tried to get other players involved in the design process.  Dickie P and Daniel Loomis have been out to walk the park with me. i also asked Jack.  Most of the route was laid out beforehand(but can change), but both guys have made tremendous recommendations that will make this park so much better.  Sometimes once the route is set, there are minor changes that can be made and sometimes major, but most routes do not get altered too much.  one person has to pick the best route out that offers greatest holes.  i appreciate feedback and would love get a group of players out to Liberty to throw the course.  We also need help out there working. some holes have only been rough cut and there is much debris that can be moved by hand.  just moving debris would be a huge help.  their park dept is pretty small and it would mean a great deal for us to go out and clean up some holes. when i am out cutting, it would be so nice to have extra hands pulling or for me to pull and someone else cut.  you do not need 15 chainsaws out there working.  One good mid-grade saw and one sharp chain will cut out a line in a few hours.  after you  drop a tree though it needs to be cut up, moved and pushed off to the side.  i also have a couple back pack sprayers and chemicals and would be glad to educate anyone on what ivy looks like.  Spraying for ivy is huge and saves the park guys tons of labor hours.  If you would like to help in anyone at Liberty, please email me at jtheiss@bssd.net. This course is really coming along and will please all levels of players.  I am pushing hard for multiple pads so all can enjoy.  Wind, woods, water, elevation-it has it all.

coops

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2013, 02:16:03 PM »
Thanks Tracy! I had never seen our mission statement before. I like that writing a lot and am glad to be a part of that club.

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I've always said the club should hold more clinics for the general public. Put on a kids summer camp for a week. Take some of that ever growing bank account money and put it into the community the club is supposed to be growing.

Totally. I think there are a lot of cool outreach opportunities like the Boy Scouts that camp out at Lakeside or Wyco that would be cool to get hooked up with. I'm not so great at organizing but if someone gets something going or has connections definitely let me know. I would love to teach some new players the basics and to get them introduced to this great game.
Sidenote: I know some of this stuff has happened in the past but has conflicted with tournaments or is wayyyy on the other side of the city for me. Given enough warning it is something that I would love to do though. I know last year when Rick asked me to come out to the RAC to give some tips I had a great time and hopefully gave a few useful pointers to the players that I saw.

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complete side step:  Maybe the church found out what a great job the club has been doing reclaiming Cliff over the years and wanted to contribute.  was was their story?

I'm curious about this too. I still want to send them a thank you email and I think it would be cool if others would as well. That sort of appreciation isn't what they're after, I know, but it would certainly let them know that we liked the area they chose to work in and might even lead to a cool partnership.

dickthediscparker

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2013, 02:41:52 PM »
The Church group was one that Timko is affiliated with.
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