Author Topic: Shame-so many should feel it....  (Read 2232 times)

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jack

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2013, 02:43:25 PM »
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complete side step:  Maybe the church found out what a great job the club has been doing reclaiming Cliff over the years and wanted to contribute.  was was their story?
I'm curious about this too. I still want to send them a thank you email and I think it would be cool if others would as well. That sort of appreciation isn't what they're after, I know, but it would certainly let them know that we liked the area they chose to work in and might even lead to a cool partnership.

Why?  Why would you a non-member of their church that wasn't there that isn't a person on the BoD send a note or need to?  There is a proper place and time to do things, and I am confused as to why YOU would feel the need to do so on behalf of a course that you play on?  Should we have you send notes to all the organizations that have helped within the parks over the past year?  I can think of at least 5 in Blue Valley alone.  I can think of 7 for Cliff Drive.  Why should we single this group out, and more importantly why should you do this?

I am not meaning to pick on you Cooper (a little mind you, because it is of course in my nature) but I would not want someone that professed in a comment earlier in the day that they "didn't know" the point of the club would be sending a thank you letter about an area that you may visit a total of (generous here) 10 times in a year.  I don't think that shows good taste at all, and sends a conflicting message.

As for courses, you aren't going to get me to think that all the courses in town are beginner friendly, they aren't.  Cliff Drive isn't, SMP isn't, Swope, and Rosedale in short placements is....Olathe used to be, but isn't as much.  Theiss has done a good job on working that in at his course so far, but clearly it isn't a course for the "big players" based on the Wide Open feedback from many, so that would consitute a friendly "tweaner" course in my mind, which lends itself to beginner friendly certainly.  I haven't played the Birdland, no idea...WyCo-C'mon, not even close to beginner friendly.  You aren't thinking about a new player that if lucky can throw it 100', which is what a new player is.

As for Charlotte, many of their courses wouldn't be there in today's age due to safety concerns.....so it's not a fair comparison.  We work and always have worked with local P&R at ensuring things made sense for the future.  We will continue to do so, at least those of us that work with the P&R at making things happen.  Not everyone that does that is even a member of the club.

As for the Club's mission, more clinics, more events, those are again time away issues, if we plan it who will show up?  I did that for years, was part of the WIN Camp, and you know what it was tough to get people to come and help.  A few people did, but not enough.

As for % of players in the club with courses....Really dude?  What other analogy makes sense.  We had at the start of the millennium 30 Club members/Course, now we have 10?  How is that not a direct correlation?

As far as it goes, Loomis I do see the work that others do not in the blood/sweat/equity as well.  I get that people do things on the fringes that help the club, and I am not bashing them.  I am simply calling out people that do nothing but give advice and pointers and then walk on by or ignore it and go to another course.

Tracy is right, it is a labor of love, and I think that comes with Pride.  I like to think of the disc golf courses as our own backyards, and how we present them is important to me.  This is why I feel confident in my comments about my stance.  I have worked in the fields, behind the scenes, and in the grass to help over the years.  I just think that when I read/hear:
I'm not trying to be snarky, funny, or whatever else, but what is the point of the club then? I am a member and I have no idea what the point is. If you had asked me I would have said leagues, KCWO, and club championships, probably in that order. I know course maintenance is in there on a lot of courses but I thought that was an ancillary goal to the others.
It ticks me off that you think you have a strong grasp of what this really is about and are able to speak about it in the right context.

Now Coop, realize of course that I am pointing this out because you put it out there.  I am CONFIDENT, that you are not alone in this line of thinking, so I am not trying to bash you specifically, but all the folks that think that they know best, but don't get it.

There is more work done than most imagine and realize.  That is a failure on part of the club, but the club is this:
A loosely organized group of volunteers with the notion of making our sport legitimate in the eyes of the nonplaying casual person/golfer.  People in here aren't the problem, the people in here have the bug, they get it.

So I try to chide them into a gut wrenching fiasco of guilt! ;D

I know that this comes out harder than I imagine it to be, and suffice it to say it appears that I am bashing Coop.  Reality, only bashing him for the thought that he needs to send a letter, the other information is that he put himself out here, and he isn't alone, so it's not just at Cooper on this, it is at you reading this if you aren't part of the solution and working towards the betterment of the sport actually.

Coop again I know you have good thoughts and desires about this sport, and I appreciate you putting it out there, this is just my stance and of course subject to ridicule and extremism as much as I give.  Collectively we all agree something has to give.

Tracy, they did make some banners that I put up on my marquee, I think that Mike Petrin should have some that indicate the role that the KCFDC plays within the parks as well!
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robm

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2013, 04:00:01 PM »
What's wrong with saying 'Thank you'?

Thanks for the beers at GBO.

Thanks for showing up at league last night when you didn't feel like it (Donny too  ;))

Thanks to Andy for his lower numbered leather tag.

Thanks to my momma for having me.

Thanks to my mother-in-law for the $ to register for GBO.

Thanks to my boss for hiring me and giving me a second chance when I couldn't get an interview after being wrongfully fired from my last job.

It is a good spiritual discipline to be thankful, even if you are not spiritual.  I forget this a lot.
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robm

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2013, 04:02:30 PM »
Cooper - contact both churches and find out which one did the deed.  I'll send them a note as well.
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jack

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2013, 04:15:26 PM »
You guys don't get it.

Thanking them isn't the issue, the issue is, is it your place to do so?  And why should you do it only to them because I pointed them out this week?  Why not send a note to all the places/organizations just over the last year that helped in the parks.

They are not the issue here...but I digress I feel that it won't matter.

I do know this though.  This is the last year that I am doing the Wide Open......so whomever turns the key will have to run with it next year and do as they see fit to make this work.

I will do as I can to help where I can, but my time helping locally is diminishing, and my time helping where I want to is going to be growing.
===o  {>[]----
Jack Lowe-
Parks Development Director for KCFDC
Multiple PDGA Worlds TD
Course Designs
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"Disc Golf-
Like ball golf, only faster,
cheaper, and healthier!"

Jake B

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2013, 04:16:35 PM »
You can't, and nor would I want to have "seasoned" players design a course, you will end up with a course that is only for them.  There is a balance, and we are "making big courses" today in many parks that will turn off the newer player.  I understand, "we have a ton of smaller courses already" mentality that you feel, but here we are with over 30 courses in the area, and only 300+ in the club.  When we had 5 courses we had 150+ in the club....so do the math, we are missing people joining the club, and that "elitist" mindset has much to do with people not comfortable coming on a course with 400' shots and 2 dog legs to get there.

This is one of the most ludicrous paragraphs I've ever read on here. To assume a pro wouldn't have really good ideas for course design or that they would only think of their game in the design is asinine. Some of the best courses in the country have been designed by "seasoned pros" and are appropriate for all levels of play.
To say that there are 30+ courses in the area is not a very accurate. Currently I see 11 courses on the forum that the club affiliates with, so the growth ratio is actually close to normal.

ekolk

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2013, 04:34:46 PM »
This thread sums it all up. A bunch of people with opinions, a few with facts, and poor communication and misunderstandings.

The mission statement was the first thing I worked on the board to provide a focus for all to work towards. Yet, we have a lot more to do with the old leadership and new in this organization. Cooper, I know you live in Lawrence but I could see getting involved at that level. My two cents.

The bottom line is to do the work and communicate with the CC's, hence, the club. If we want to be a leading organization we have act like one and keep our online personalities with our face-to-face personalities.
This topic is very informative and I thank Cooper for his insightful responses. Now that we have espoused our solutions let's get done what needs to be done.  In other words, this is still talk, important, but still talk.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 09:56:49 PM by ekolk »

Mike Hyzer

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2013, 05:00:02 PM »
One good mid-grade saw and one sharp chain will cut out a line in a few hours.

Yeah, one of your lines, maybe. Like #2 and #14 at Young-- those ain't lines, those are spaces where a disc might fly through if the thrower is lucky. ;D
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coops

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2013, 05:46:53 PM »
You can't, and nor would I want to have "seasoned" players design a course, you will end up with a course that is only for them.  There is a balance, and we are "making big courses" today in many parks that will turn off the newer player.  I understand, "we have a ton of smaller courses already" mentality that you feel, but here we are with over 30 courses in the area, and only 300+ in the club.  When we had 5 courses we had 150+ in the club....so do the math, we are missing people joining the club, and that "elitist" mindset has much to do with people not comfortable coming on a course with 400' shots and 2 dog legs to get there.

This is one of the most ludicrous paragraphs I've ever read on here. To assume a pro wouldn't have really good ideas for course design or that they would only think of their game in the design is asinine. Some of the best courses in the country have been designed by "seasoned pros" and are appropriate for all levels of play.
To say that there are 30+ courses in the area is not a very accurate. Currently I see 11 courses on the forum that the club affiliates with, so the growth ratio is actually close to normal.

Yep.

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2013, 06:00:59 PM »
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Why?  Why would you a non-member of their church that wasn't there that isn't a person on the BoD send a note or need to?  There is a proper place and time to do things, and I am confused as to why YOU would feel the need to do so on behalf of a course that you play on?  Should we have you send notes to all the organizations that have helped within the parks over the past year?  I can think of at least 5 in Blue Valley alone.  I can think of 7 for Cliff Drive.  Why should we single this group out, and more importantly why should you do this?

This pisses me off more than I think my words can do justice. I'm not talking about sending them an effing tax-deductible receipt thanking them for their work and providing them with out tax-id I'm talking about an email to the Church that says "Hey, I heard you guys were out helping to clean up Cliff Drive. I just wanted you to know that that means a lot to me and I'm grateful for you."

How does that overstep my bounds? Do I have to have BoD clearance to say thanks? Do I have to have put in 3 bajillion effing hours in KC disc golf to get to be thankful?

Here's all I can say: I was raised to say thank you when someone did something for me. When the waitress brings another glass of water, when a stranger holds the door, and when a group of one hundred volunteers shows up to a park they may or may not use to pick up used needles, condoms, a bag of once frozen chicken, car tires, 7-11 cups and whatever other filth the denizens of Kansas City have felt they needed to dump there.

This is the EXACT sort of special elitism that runs absolutely rampant and makes many people not want to show up. The audacity to suggest that I cannot feel and express gratitude for someone doing something laudable is laughable at best and malicious and self-serving at worst.

To think, this whole thread could've simply said how awesome it was to see so many people out helping out the city and to encourage people on here to do the same. It had to turn into a semi-public shaming and progress from there. I think ideas have been brought forth that are valuable and I hope action is taken on them.

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #39 on: April 23, 2013, 06:06:00 PM »
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I am not meaning to pick on you Cooper (a little mind you, because it is of course in my nature) but I would not want someone that professed in a comment earlier in the day that they "didn't know" the point of the club would be sending a thank you letter about an area that you may visit a total of (generous here) 10 times in a year.  I don't think that shows good taste at all, and sends a conflicting message.

Doesn't it show a failure of the club that a person who has been actively playing (just a guess, I'm not going to try to count) 50+ leagues a year doesn't know the mission statement? I don't feel bad for not knowing. When was I supposed to find out? If I'd gone to a BoD meeting would we have all had to stand and put our hands over our hearts while we professed our loyalty?

And, how is whether I know the mission statement and recite it in reverse order going to dictate, IN THE LEAST, my ability to say thank you? I'll help you out there, it isn't.

coops

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #40 on: April 23, 2013, 06:10:43 PM »
Sorry for the rapid-fire posting. I don't like multi-quoting and mixing the ideas in each post. Too much can get lost there.

Next point.

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As for Charlotte, many of their courses wouldn't be there in today's age due to safety concerns.....so it's not a fair comparison.  We work and always have worked with local P&R at ensuring things made sense for the future.  We will continue to do so, at least those of us that work with the P&R at making things happen.  Not everyone that does that is even a member of the club.

They are there. I went there two years ago and played Renny and Elon and Reedy. I missed Hornet's Nest, I didn't have a car of my own so I was limited but at least two years ago they were still there, with 'today's... safety concerns'.

And specifically, which course, and which holes do you think violate some creedo of safety and would be disallowed in our city? I would love to look up those holes, watch video and look at pictures, and have an intelligent discussion about it but I'm not going to argue against nonspecific examples.

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #41 on: April 23, 2013, 06:21:10 PM »
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As for % of players in the club with courses....Really dude?  What other analogy makes sense.  We had at the start of the millennium 30 Club members/Course, now we have 10?  How is that not a direct correlation?

You're missing the point. I'm saying that the number of players in the club to number of courses in the city isn't correlated. I think it would be foolish to claim that the number of players hasn't increased at least steadily with the number of places to play but players are not the same as club members.

Again, it is a failure of the club, not a failure of the design of the courses.

And if you want to talk specifically I'm sure you'd point out that we have BV and not very many people play there and not that many people play cliff either but let's look at those two examples specifically.

BV, while I will concede it is not a beginner-friendly course, is also the epitome of why a beginner would not play a course. It is hard only because it is long and the pins are on slopes. Do you think the beginners mind the pins on slopes? I doubt it. What they mind is that he course is long and there isn't any demand for anything they might be good at. Let's compare say hole (really almost any hole at BV, they are all long and open, right?) to a hole that I don't remember the number of in Des Moines at Walnut Ridge if memory serves. The hole is over 500' long and through a tunnel. It is very hard to get a three or four on the hole for anyone, let alone a beginner, but you can't make me believe that when they see me throw it 150' and smash a tree and they throw 100' and end up in the fairway that they aren't enjoying themselves. We need to provide something besides length to increase challenge.

I don't even feel like arguing about Cliff. A beginner could have a lot of fun on the front side and absolutely hate the back, but guess what, if they want to leave after 10 they are right back by their car. I don't know many people that I've taken out for their first time that want to play a full 18 anyway. A beginner playing the backside would probably just as soon jump into the reservoir than finish out though because almost all that is required after 10 is length and putting.

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SMP isn't

Have you ever played SMP? There are always casual/beginner types out there. I guess those players just don't know what is best for them and need to go up to Rosey and pray it is in shorts or they are just not going to have ANY fun out there.

jack

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2013, 08:23:41 AM »
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Why?  Why would you a non-member of their church that wasn't there that isn't a person on the BoD send a note or need to?  There is a proper place and time to do things, and I am confused as to why YOU would feel the need to do so on behalf of a course that you play on?  Should we have you send notes to all the organizations that have helped within the parks over the past year?  I can think of at least 5 in Blue Valley alone.  I can think of 7 for Cliff Drive.  Why should we single this group out, and more importantly why should you do this?

This pisses me off more than I think my words can do justice. I'm not talking about sending them an effing tax-deductible receipt thanking them for their work and providing them with out tax-id I'm talking about an email to the Church that says "Hey, I heard you guys were out helping to clean up Cliff Drive. I just wanted you to know that that means a lot to me and I'm grateful for you."

How does that overstep my bounds? Do I have to have BoD clearance to say thanks? Do I have to have put in 3 bajillion effing hours in KC disc golf to get to be thankful?

Here's all I can say: I was raised to say thank you when someone did something for me. When the waitress brings another glass of water, when a stranger holds the door, and when a group of one hundred volunteers shows up to a park they may or may not use to pick up used needles, condoms, a bag of once frozen chicken, car tires, 7-11 cups and whatever other filth the denizens of Kansas City have felt they needed to dump there.

This is the EXACT sort of special elitism that runs absolutely rampant and makes many people not want to show up. The audacity to suggest that I cannot feel and express gratitude for someone doing something laudable is laughable at best and malicious and self-serving at worst.

My point is why them?  AGAIN, WHY THIS ORGANIZATION?  Why not all the other organizations?  Had I not mentioned word ONE about this group, would you be doing it?  Would you be reaching out to them?  That is what I am saying.  To me that is offensive to say, oh Jack mentioned you about helping so I want to thank you.  That is what you are saying is ok.

There is NOTHING wrong with thanking organizations that help within the parks that we work on, but I don't get why you feel it is ok on this group, and ignoring the others.  Haven't heard how you think that is ok.  I get that you feel that you should, but again is it your place?  Were you there when they opened the door?  Do you stop and thank the people walking in and out of a store holding a door for someone else?  Same premise on that.

Here is what I was attempting to say on this thread.....we need more help on the courses, and we need more ownership.  It is that simple.  There are over 30 courses Jake, this isn't just about KCFDC courses and affliations, it has to do with in 2000 we had Rosedale (2) Swope, WW, Olathe, California Trail, Lawrence, and WyCo just went in.....to play on, now we have over ~30, do I need to count them?  ;D

As for pro-designing courses, I am not saying it is a horrible thing, and I think that input from all levels of play are good, but at times a pro-level player isn't taking into consideration the level of play at the introductory level.  As for SMP, of course there are a ton of people out there, it is the busiest park in the area, it still doesn't mean that this is a beginner friendly course.  I think of P-Hill when it first went in as a beginner friendly course...~4800-5200, SMP was closer to 6000 at first....yes you can have a fun course that is long, I get that, but the ability to not feel inept is what will bring many back. 

It may be a failure of the club in regards to the # of players, but what have you (meaning every club member, not Cooper) done to encourage and exploit what the club does while you are on the course?

Club members are the biggest advocates for the club, and if you don't know understand what the club is about, is that a failure of the club, or is it your own inability to find out?  You are right there is a need for better communication, but how many in here even go to the webpage of the club?  Have you looked at the redesigned web page where this information is, or do you just come to the forums?

We aren't on CNN/KCTV5, Fox4.....we are the people playing, and we need to let people know that we are the group that does things.  Playing leagues helps with the club, but it doesn't fix the issues.  That was the reasoning for the topic, it has taken on a life of its own, and although has ups and downs, it has some great merit for conversation points on better ways to help.
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Course Designs
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"Disc Golf-
Like ball golf, only faster,
cheaper, and healthier!"

coops

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2013, 08:50:18 AM »
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My point is why them?  AGAIN, WHY THIS ORGANIZATION?  Why not all the other organizations?  Had I not mentioned word ONE about this group, would you be doing it?  Would you be reaching out to them?  That is what I am saying.  To me that is offensive to say, oh Jack mentioned you about helping so I want to thank you.  That is what you are saying is ok.

I fail to see how it is 'offensive' to thank a group and find it repulsive to suggest so.

Do you really want to know why I haven't said we should thank other groups? Because I've never heard of another group doing work on our courses. I think it is a damn shame that we don't thank every group with a simple email from some KCFDC members, personal contact (like you did out there), or maybe even a card saying thanks that people who show up for league or a tournament sign.

We want to encourage synergistic relationships with organizations like this and I think the best way to do that is to let them know that we appreciate their work. Maybe then, next time they are looking for an activity or a place of service, they'll contact the KCFDC to see what sort of work they could do. We don't want them in a position where they think the work they did wasn't appreciated by more than just a one guy in a hockey jersey.

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There is NOTHING wrong with thanking organizations that help within the parks that we work on, but I don't get why you feel it is ok on this group, and ignoring the others.  Haven't heard how you think that is ok.

We should thank everybody. It seems like you have some sort of agenda that prevents us from thanking this group and I don't get that.

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I get that you feel that you should, but again is it your place?

You're missing the point. I'm not saying it is MY place. I'm saying it is EVERYONE'S place. I am a dues paying member of the KCFDC and if I want to contact a group that I heard was doing good work to say thank you I should not only be allowed to but encouraged to do so. (By the way, I already emailed them because I'm a adult with free-will in America. My message was simple, it expressed gratitude and told them that we appreciated the work they did for our course and the community.)

Furthermore, you haven't addressed the level of clearance you think is needed to say thank you. Do I need to run for the Board to say thanks? Do I need to have my membership card and mini on my person for identification purposes? Do I need to have designed and installed at least 3 courses? Seriously, this is an actual point. I'm not just pointing out the ridiculousness of your position I'm wanting you to clarify what level I need to be to say thanks.

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Do you stop and thank the people walking in and out of a store holding a door for someone else?  Same premise on that.

Do you not say thank you when someone holds a door for you? Or give an appreciative head nod? I do. It doesn't take ANY effort on my part and affirms their actions.

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As for SMP, of course there are a ton of people out there, it is the busiest park in the area, it still doesn't mean that this is a beginner friendly course.

So you're admitting that newer players, unskilled players, and experienced players can all flock to the same course? I guess that sort of destroys your point about designing for the lowest common denominator then, eh?

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.yes you can have a fun course that is long, I get that, but the ability to not feel inept is what will bring many back. 

You have to admit that a feeling of ineptitude is as much a problem of expectation as it is actual results. If a new player weren't told by someone somewhere that a 450' hole was a par three do you think they'd get as upset or feel as ineffectual if they took a 5 or 6 on it? No, they wouldn't. Putting a public par on tee signs (or even the 'helpful hints' like up at Smithville) is a great way to get people to feel better and to keep coming back.

And clinics like the ones that DD is doing are also a great way to get people to feel better about their game. Sure they can watch a player crush a 450' drive down the fairway but in a setting where that player explains how they do it and how long it took them to learn to do it is the critical point. Maybe we should start modelling ourselves after the DDKC store. They do outreach, field testing days, clinics, fun leagues, etc... (And I know you'll say they are trying to do it for a buck and I get that criticism, but they are a business after all. Who is to say that motivation can't both be educational AND profitable.)




jack

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Re: Shame-so many should feel it....
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2013, 09:05:35 AM »
you win. 
===o  {>[]----
Jack Lowe-
Parks Development Director for KCFDC
Multiple PDGA Worlds TD
Course Designs
913.485.5123-C
"Disc Golf-
Like ball golf, only faster,
cheaper, and healthier!"