Author Topic: What is your favorite basket?  (Read 3013 times)

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jhinck2

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Re: What is your favorite basket?
« Reply #90 on: July 10, 2013, 04:09:08 PM »
So question, is there a new course being put in or is this a purely hypothetical conversation IF and WHEN we get a new course?I will again refer to my earlier comment that there's no need to replace current baskets.  There are a LOT of other things we could spend money on in our courses.  None of our courses need new baskets that bad.
Jordan Hinck
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Re: What is your favorite basket?
« Reply #91 on: July 10, 2013, 04:31:18 PM »
How about this: this is mostly for future reference. And Water Works.

The only reason I say Water Works is that it had been mentioned that there was talk of getting the P&R to buy new baskets. If that happens I think we should, as a club through our elected Board Members, at least have a voice in what is chosen. In this instance I don't think it was our money being spent, but there certainly is a way to get some for the club as a result.

slimneal

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Re: What is your favorite basket?
« Reply #92 on: July 10, 2013, 07:49:23 PM »
imho really? really?
All baskets have pros & cons.
You are playing the same basket as everybody else in your group at any given time, at any given course. It is what it is.

I saw Tank have a minor meltdown during the Wide Open, cussing the basket and yelling something to the effect " these baskets need to be in a museum" the other PRO players looked a little bewildered at his reaction as they did and  did not make their putts too. Adjust accordingly, although in my case just cuss accordingly. Although praying is not uncalled for. Sorry Tank, just sayin'.

As far as cost, mostly the cities buy these. I would assume there is a RFQ (Request for quotation)
which denotes a general spec on the baskets, so as to not leave any viable vendor out.
It is up to the mfg to submit a reasonable price and qualify for acceptance.
Generally, they don't have to take low bid, if the budget and logistics are right. But Generally, they do take low bid.  The good thing is that there are multiple manufactures. Praise the Lord.
I don't know much but I know this:
It is the Indian, not the arrow. And it definitely ain't  the basket.
Sorry, 2 cents
Humble Mayor
I throw a whippet with mucho mungo
But it turned over and coondogged a tree

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Re: What is your favorite basket?
« Reply #93 on: July 10, 2013, 09:18:10 PM »
imho really? really?
All baskets have pros & cons.
You are playing the same basket as everybody else in your group at any given time, at any given course. It is what it is.

I saw Tank have a minor meltdown during the Wide Open, cussing the basket and yelling something to the effect " these baskets need to be in a museum" the other PRO players looked a little bewildered at his reaction as they did and  did not make their putts too. Adjust accordingly, although in my case just cuss accordingly. Although praying is not uncalled for. Sorry Tank, just sayin'.

As far as cost, mostly the cities buy these. I would assume there is a RFQ (Request for quotation)
which denotes a general spec on the baskets, so as to not leave any viable vendor out.
It is up to the mfg to submit a reasonable price and qualify for acceptance.
Generally, they don't have to take low bid, if the budget and logistics are right. But Generally, they do take low bid.  The good thing is that there are multiple manufactures. Praise the Lord.
I don't know much but I know this:
It is the Indian, not the arrow. And it definitely ain't  the basket.
Sorry, 2 cents
Humble Mayor

Please read the rest of the thread and try to understand what I'm saying. Yes, everyone is playing on the same baskets, but that doesn't mean we can't try to pick the best baskets possible. There are differences. There are preferences. There are facts. We should weigh all these things.

And I understand that the city buys these things, but at some level Jack implied (on the club business thread) that he has quite a say in what baskets get picked. My contention is twofold: a representative of the club with a club sanction should be making those sorts of suggestions and secondly that the Board should try to figure out what the players like because ultimately it is our club as a whole. Being on the Board imbues one with a responsibility to the club and consequently to the members.

So, please don't misconstrue my arguments without understanding their intent. I'm not saying there is a wrong choice. I'm saying there is a better choice. I've offered a number of objective measures including financial reasons and no one has refuted them. I would be happy to engage them on the facts when someone has something substantive to say.

coops

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Re: What is your favorite basket?
« Reply #94 on: July 15, 2013, 12:15:37 PM »
So. Now that everyone is back from that tournament in Emporia (I heard it was kind of a big deal or something), can we resume our discussion of what basket is best and who or what entity should be recommending them to the P&Rs?

I think we've had some fruitful discussion so far and am excited to see what sort of arguments can come forth now that everyone is a little less busy!

jack

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Re: What is your favorite basket?
« Reply #95 on: July 15, 2013, 01:14:27 PM »
THe course designer and the P&R decide this option, it isn't a group of elected officials to the KCFDC that has no monetary involvement in the decisions.  The BoD isn't making the course decisions, the people designing the courses and the P&R are the decision makers.

As for 10% from Innova or DGA, since the club isn't buying the baskets it has nothing really to do with the question at hand.  Now you are changing the topic to fit a description of how should courses be designed by committee and how do I (Cooper) get to have everyone see that Innova is better in my mind topic over the issue of what is your favorite basket.

You are attempting to insert a type of policy that isn't needed, shouldn't be decided, and isn't germane to the question at hand.  You are now changing the topic you started to fit a decision that hasn't been so you are wanting to create a policy on a BoD that you are not a member of nor have served as a member of in its history.

The bottom line is this.  We are USING park lands for our sport, we give thousands of hours of sweat, blood, and love equity in the courses.  There are individuals that work more closely with P&R than others, and there are designers that nudge those officials in charge towards what they feel is best.  These facts have nothing to do with what is your favorite basket.  Itself a very subjective topic, but rather your insistence now on calling for something from a stance of no involvement to date towards any meetings of development or progress towards the sport.

I am curious how you feel that you are entitled to ask for something to change that has never been a policy, or why you feel that it should be the BoD of decision to make that claim.  For that matter along those same lines, why would the club only purchase discs from Innova or Discraft, or Gateway, or Prodigy, DD, etc.....  There are many options and many factions that the BoD must decide, they are not however the course design team for any project to date.  At times members of the EC/BoD have been involved in design work,  but those decisions about hardware, installation (SMP didn't want to go with the "Cashen Sleeves" for example) are left to the designer and the P&R, not the BoD. 

The delays that could be involved about choosing a basket are silly to think about, the notion of which basket is your favorite is topic for debate, the idea the club executives (an all volunteer organization I might add)to tell a P&R what to buy specifically is just plain lousy towards that partnership that is older than you are in most cases.  It is about as silly as saying that I told P&R to buy the DGA Mach III, I gave a suggestion and recommendation.  Being a certified disc golf designer and having designed now over 10 courses I have a preference, and chose to give them my input.  They make the decision though, not even as the course designer is that decision left to me.  Do I have impact on the decision absolutely, and again for my own reasons that I feel comfortable with, I like the DGA product, so I tout them as the preferred choice.

My thought process is like this, the people that are out there making things happen are the people that get a say in the decision process on how things work.  Those that type in a chat room looking for answers aren't doing a service other than to add fuel to arguments.  So hence my stance on DGA is this simple.  They last, they are consistent in quality control, and they support and cooperate with the communities that they have been in for close to 40 years now.  Their product may not be what "you" like, but their product is true to the sport, and their determination to continue to see the sport succeed is never questioned.  Though the same can be made of most disc golf related companies this person (meaning myself) that has written and received grants to build courses goes with DGA because I can.  I am comfortable with them and their product, and this is why I choose to support them in all my presentations for courses.  I will alter my focus though where applicable, and part of that may be the case in the new Cliff Drive Course, where I worked with Innova as part of the option to help raise funds for a course during the Wide Open.  Again goes to show what is involved, and those making it happen have to weigh the decisions, not those in a chat room, and not those that aren't part of the planning and design.
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Jack Lowe-
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coops

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Re: What is your favorite basket?
« Reply #96 on: July 15, 2013, 02:07:28 PM »
You made some good points, Jack. I'm glad you finally decided to argue (some) substantive points instead of just pointing to your years of experience.

I would like to focus the argument on Water Works, though. I think that situation is much more unique and is more what I was talking about. (If you'd read earlier posts) I argued that an existing course has different circumstances governing which baskets should be used to 'upgrade' or 'update'.

My question and subsequent debate was truly focused on this specific scenario and any like scenarios that might happen in the future. It was brought up in the Club Business section where Tank suggested that we get some DISCatchers. You shut it down in quite an authoritarian tone which is problematic at best. On courses that the club is responsible for the club should have a say when baskets are changed. (Note, this is INTRINSICALLY different than a new course being installed.)

On the money back. Look into Innova: They made it very clear that it doesn't have to be club money buying the baskets in order to qualify for the commission, as they called it. It said that a club or individual could or should receive that commission for recommending their products.

As for the 'whoever does the work' argument. It has been asked and answered. Just because you do a lot of work doesn't mean you have any unique insight into the correct way to do things. You may know how they have been done but it doesn't lend itself to knowing how they should be done. Let's drop this, it is silly, distracting, and makes your points look juvenile and self-serving.

I'm sure I've got more to say, but my break is almost over so it'll have to wait.

In sum, and I want everyone to read this yet again: I'm not saying there is a wrong choice in baskets, I'm merely contending there is a better choice.

And, we shouldn't have one club member responsible for talking to P&Rs for upgrading our courses without a specific club sanction and without direction from the club. It is autocratic and ridiculous and trivializes those members who pay their dues but don't get the voice those dues should warrant.

Kevin Simpson

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Re: What is your favorite basket?
« Reply #97 on: July 15, 2013, 02:11:25 PM »
Given how much effort Jack expends to avoid a civil discussion on this topic--a topic that has objective factors that aren't mere "opinion"--I sometimes have to wonder exactly how much juice he gets on the side for each course he installs with DGA baskets.

You're willing to write 10,000 words about why you don't have to answer the question instead of just writing one paragraph about the objective reasons why you recommend Mach IIIs to P&R departments (something about the baskets themselves, and not baloney about DGA's "determination to see the sport succeed".)

Just smells fishy to me.

Anyone want to take bets that Jack's response to this post will focus on my lack of experience and laziness, and won't address the issue at all? That seems to be his go-to strategy.

kcfrisbee

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Re: What is your favorite basket?
« Reply #98 on: July 15, 2013, 02:24:59 PM »
Can we all please do our best to be kind with our words on this forum.  A heated topic is wonderful and welcome but pointing fingers, name calling and taunting on all sides is uncool.

Kevin Simpson

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Re: What is your favorite basket?
« Reply #99 on: July 15, 2013, 02:26:56 PM »
Can we all please do our best to be kind with our words on this forum.  A heated topic is wonderful and welcome but pointing fingers, name calling and taunting on all sides is uncool.

I'd love to have a heated discussion about the actual topic, but Jack's constant misdirection and bullying don't allow for that.

kcfrisbee

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Re: What is your favorite basket?
« Reply #100 on: July 15, 2013, 02:27:44 PM »
In that case stick to the topic.

phisherman_77

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Re: What is your favorite basket?
« Reply #101 on: July 15, 2013, 02:29:34 PM »
Can we all please do our best to be kind with our words on this forum.  A heated topic is wonderful and welcome but pointing fingers, name calling and taunting on all sides is uncool.

I'd love to have a heated discussion about the actual topic, but Jack's constant misdirection and bullying don't allow for that.

Jack?  Bullying?  Are we talking about the same person?

jhinck2

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Re: What is your favorite basket?
« Reply #102 on: July 15, 2013, 02:42:30 PM »
Quite frankly I wish this thread would go away.  It's like getting poison ivy out on the course.  You would so dearly love for it to stop itching, but the itch WON'T STOP.
Jordan Hinck
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jamidanger

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Re: What is your favorite basket?
« Reply #103 on: July 15, 2013, 03:21:56 PM »
poison ivy will not grow within 10 meters of a titan basket, but you can expect a flock of birds within 50 meters of a titan basket.
espouse elucidation

Kevin Simpson

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Re: What is your favorite basket?
« Reply #104 on: July 15, 2013, 03:26:05 PM »
Quite frankly I wish this thread would go away.  It's like getting poison ivy out on the course.  You would so dearly love for it to stop itching, but the itch WON'T STOP.

I agree that there isn't much point for this thread to continue. Jack has made his position pretty clear: there is no need to have a discussion about the club members' consensus regarding the best baskets, teepads, or any other feature of a course. Why? Because we aren't the ones designing the courses or working with the P&R departments, so our voices will not be heard. Jack, through his years of tireless and generous service, has earned the right to make these decisions without the blessing of the BoD, or even less significantly, a bunch of yahoos on their keyboards. So everyone, please just shut up and let Jack carry on with the business of running Kansas City Disc Golf.